Source of “Jesus Died For Our Sins”
“That Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures*; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.” 1Cor 15:3-4 (See BTW#1 below).
There it is. The single sentence, penned by Paul around 55 AD, that is the rationale behind the most fundamental tenet of Christianity – “that Christ died for our sins”. No one else, no where else – is there any support for this assertion (See BTW#2 below).
John 3:16 claims that you will have everlasting life if you “believeth in him” but there is no requirement in John 3:16 to believe that Jesus died for our sins.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16.
We will acknowledge that the phrase “gave his only begotten Son” does imply a sacrifice; but there is no explicit indication that the sacrifice redeemed us from our sins. Regardless, John 3:16 does not mean what Christians think it does. See BTW#3 below.
How Paul Came To The Conclusion Jesus Died For Our Sins
- Being a Pharisaic Jew, Paul was well aware of legalistic practices of Judaism requiring blood sacrifice rituals.
- The offering of a sacrifice was considered an act of obedience to God. Paul used this “sacrifice” analogy to interpret Jesus’ crucifixion as an act of obedience to God to atone for the the sins of humankind. Paul wrote, “For as by one man’s (Adam’s) disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s (Jesus’) obedience many will be made righteous” (Romans 5:19).
- Paul’s theory about why Jesus had to die is explained in Paul’s letter to the Christians in Rome. Paul used the story of “Adam and Eve” in the Hebrew book of Genesis to explain the origin of sin and death. Here Paul demonstrates that this belief -we are saved from sin and death by Jesus’ death on the cross (his crucifixion) is totally derived from his extrapolation from Genesis “Therefore sin came into the world through one man (Adam) and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned” (Romans 5:12).
- “But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ (Jesus) died for us. Since therefore we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God” (Romans 5:8-9). The finishing touch! Paul’s explanation of the death of Jesus was in terms of a blood sacrifice to atone for Adam and Eve’s (alleged) sin.
(Guess where John got his “For God so loved the world … died for our sins” idea.)
Paul’s Context and Culture
For Paul, the whole idea of “atone for sin, salvation through faith” is derived from his pharisaic knowledge of the Old Testament and his understanding of universal religious “sacrifice” practices. Paul knew that the offering of a sacrifice was considered an act of obedience to God. Paul used this “sacrifice” analogy to interpret Jesus’ crucifixion as an act of obedience to God to atone for the the sins of humankind. Note: Paul “interpreted” – no divine revelation.
Paul had one encounter with a vision/apparition/light of Jesus and that’s all he says about his conversations with Jesus. Paul makes no claim that God/Jesus revealed this “truth” to him! . On the contrary, Paul spells out the stream of conscientious that led him to claim that Jesus died for our sins.
Evolution Refutes Paul’s Reasoning
The foundation tenet of Christianity is based on an event that didn’t happen – the “sin” of Adam and Eve. But, we are here because of Evolution.
As we now know, man, plants and animals evolved over a period of 3.5 billion years. There was no biblical Adam and Eve. There was no “original sin” to be redeemed by Jesus death. This alone is sufficient to prove that Jesus did not die for our sins.
Paul’s rationale is without foundation. His knowledge of “science” was limited to what he knew of Old Testament stories. If one acknowledges the truth of evolution, then one must also acknowledge that Paul’s conclusion, “Jesus Died For Our Sins” is based on a false, Old Testament verse and therefore cannot be true.
Think of this for a moment. One man writes one sentence based on an event (Adam & Eve) that did not happen and this misunderstanding of reality gives birth to the most fundamental tenet of the Christian church? Really?
Paul was a Pharisaic Jew. We will concede that Paul did not know about evolution when he evolved his “died for your sins” theory.
Other Evidence (Theological) That Jesus Did Not Die for Our Sins
Theological Problem I
Paul is the only person in the world to write that Jesus died to redeem us from the sin of Adam and Eve. Jesus never said that his death was to redeem us.
Is it likely that God would rely on a man whose teachings were diametrically opposite (faith vs works, Gentiles vs Jews) to those of his “Son” to pass on the most important idea in all of Christianity? Is it probable that God would let the salvation of all mankind rest on one man’s single sentence which is entirely opposite to the message Jesus presented in the synoptic gospels? Why would God, all of the sudden, change the message that He sent His only begotten Son here to promulgate? And why would he entrust this HUGE change to be disseminated by a mere mortal?
This is a BIG problem.
Theological Problem II
Using the concept of the Trinity, Jesus is God. Jesus so states in:
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
John 10:38 The Father is in me, and I in him. Therefore they sought again to take him.
John 14:9 He that hath seen me hath seen the Father.
God is Jesus, Jesus is God, God is eternal, God doesn’t die. God did not die, God is not dead. The earthly body of Jesus “died” but Jesus/God is not dead. Where is the “sacrifice” of his “only begotten son” if He is Him?
Theological Problem III
That line of reasoning aside, exactly how would “God sacrificing Himself to Himself to save us from Himself” work? How does that remove the sin of Adam and Eve? It is only by the convoluted thought process of Paul that we are saved because of the God/Jesus “sacrifice”. Surly a an omnipotent, omniscient, loving, merciful, just God who created everything in six days could come up with something other than killing himself/his son. How about just declaring forgiveness?
But, for the sake of argument, let’s grant that “Jesus died for our sins”. In that case, then the sin is gone. Why is it required that one has to believe in Jesus’ Resurrection in order to be saved? The sin of Adam and Eve was redeemed with Jesus’ death. It’s gone! It’s no more – ever! Once and for all. It’s off the backs of everyone who lives after Jesus’ death. What then, does believing in Jesus’ Resurrection have to do with being free from original sin? It has already been redeemed. Why are you only “saved” if you believe that Jesus was Resurrected? What does one’s belief have to do with salvation? But that’s another story.
Theological Problem IV
The “original sin” of Adam was redeemed with the flood!
“These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.”
Noah was “perfect in his generations”. “Perfect” includes having no sin, otherwise one wouldn’t be perfect. That Noah was perfect “in his generations” means that all his offspring were also perfect and therefore we are perfect, free from sin. We started over, sinless, from Noah on.
The Credibility of Paul
Because Paul’s “Jesus Died For Your Sins” theology is the centerpiece of Christian doctrine, it is incumbent to investigate Paul’s credibility. There are several reasons to doubt that Paul has any credibility whatsoever.
- Paul has no God given authority to speak. Seeing an apparition does not give one the authority to speak for God.
- At one point, Paul does claim his knowledge comes from “Revelation” but it is faulty and contradicts what Jesus taught. He does not elaborate on this “Revelation”.
- Paul contradicts himself.
- Paul makes promises of things that did not happen.
Because all of the above assertions about Paul’s credibility are developed and evidence is provided in another page – “Paul is so wrong about so much, why do you believe anything he says?, we will not repeat it here.
The conclusion reached in that page is that nothing Paul says is credible. Don’t challenge that assertion until you have read the page.
The Credibility of John
No Biblical Scholar believes that the book of John was written by the apostle John. The consensus is that John was written by a committee sometime after 90 AD. See Who Wrote The Book of John. The most unusual thing about John being the author is that he seems to appear unexpectedly from out of nowhere. No other books of the Bible contain any reference to any person called “the disciple whom Jesus loved”. You will not find this phrase outside of this author’s own gospel.
In addition EVEN IF the author of John was with Jesus, it was over 55 years prior! John would have been a senile, Alzheimer ridden 90 year old man! And yet, we are to believe that he could remember, word for word, exactly what everyone (not just Jesus – he quotes others too) said 55 years ago? That is like a 90 year old man remembering every word, every scene, every situation of a play he was in 55 years ago. Can you recite a 10,000 word tract, word for word, you read once 55 years ago? That is the equivalent of what John would have done.
What took him so long? Why did it take “John” 55 years to decide to write about the event that determines the fate of all mankind for the rest of eternity? Again, the idea that God would rely on this message from John reaching all of mankind for the rest of eternity is just too preposterous.
The book of John is not credible either.
BTW = BY THE WAY
The “scriptures” that Paul refers to are what? Paul is so anxious to tie his idea to scripture that he, without any foundation, claims that his “died for your sins” idea was prophasized in scripture. Where are the verses that prophesize that a messiah would suffer, die, and be resurrected from the dead? Where are the prophecies that are referred to in 1Cor 15:3-4?
Hosea 6:1-2 perhaps?
Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
But this verse is spoken to an audience; it refers to the people living at the time (hence “us”) and therefore cannot be fulfilled by the death and resurrection of Jesus. It is the only candidate.
A Word About Sacrifice
Sacrifice was the standard way to appease the ancient gods. Most religions required the sacrifice of animals and other valuables. A few required human sacrifice. Christianity came up with the ultimate marketing ploy: to gain access to everlasting life, you did NOT have to sacrifice your goat, you did not have to kill another human, you only had to believe that God sacrificed a human, a special human, his SON!
There it is. The concept of sacrifice all wrapped up in a tidy package and no one has to sacrifice anything because God sacrificed his son. Neat eh? No wonder Christianity spread. It was simple to implement at no cost to the believers.
There are several other reasons for the acceptance of Christianity. For Paul’s Jewish audience, Paul’s Christianity was an attractive option:
- You don’t have to circumcise yourself.
- A promise of a heavenly afterlife at no cost; all you have to do is “believe”.
- The one sacrifice means you no longer have to sacrifice your goat.
- The one sacrifice means you don’t even have to think about your own sin.
- You can ignore the unchangeable 613 mitzvot (commandments) that God gave to the Jewish people in the Torah
- You can keep all your beliefs about reincarnated Gods and blood sacrifice.
Christianity was a “low cost” option to adopt. Now don’t start telling us about all the Christians that were killed. Yes some were killed for their beliefs just like others were killed for their belief. A Jewish woman could be stoned for adultery.
No other Gospel (Matthew, Mark, Luke) says Christ died for our sins.
John is the only Gospel that even suggests that belief in Jesus died for our sins; that belief in the resurrection is the necessary and sufficient condition for everlasting life. On the other hand, Jesus, in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke, gives at least 23 different paths to salvation. “The Path To Salvation Is Not Clear“ presents each of Jesus’ paths to salvation. Here is just one of them:
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Matthew 16: 26-27
In the three synoptic Gospels, Jesus NEVER says or intimates that “I will be crucified so that your sins will be forgiven; I will be reincarnated in three days and if you believe all this, you will have everlasting life when you die”. Never says it!
John 3:16 is Misunderstood by Christians
John, then, is the only disciple who picks up on Paul’s iwith this well known paraphrase of Paul:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16
“Whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life”. Hmm…if Jesus spoke those words, then the “him” refers to God, his father; not Jesus! Otherwise he would have said “…that whosoever believeth in ME….
Reference to “HIM” would be consistent with Jesus’ constant message that you must have faith and belief in his Father. It is also consistent with the first part: “For GOD so loved the world that HE sent his only begotten Son. Now, “him” clearly refers to God, not Jesus.
Jesus himself confirms this in John 5:24:
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:24
Not only does Jesus totally contradict John 3:16, John 6:47 and John 11:25 with John 5:24 but he makes it clear that John 3:16 is being misinterpreted by Christians. “... believeth on him that sent me…“, that would be his Father, i.e. God. Thus, in John 5:24 Jesus entirely repudiates the notion that belief in resurrection is necessary for salvation; repudiates that belief in him (Jesus) is necessary for salvation. You only have to Hear Jesus Word AND believeth on Him that sent me … in order to pass from death unto life.
Now, John 5:24 appears to be contradicted by these two verses:
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. — John 6:47 –
I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever beliveth and believeth in me shall never die. — John 11:25-26
But neither of these verses say anything about dying to save us from the sin of Adam and Eve, and as pointed out above, they are contradicted by other verses in John.
And… the last two quoted verses totally support the theme of The Church Of Truth, “The Bible is so wrong about so much, why believe any of it”.
So, which to believe? John 5:24 or John 6:47? In this case we have two diametrically opposed dogmas from the same author! Why believe anything John says?
An Explanation of How It Works … i.e. Jesus Died For Our Sins
By Brian Zahnd, the founder and lead pastor of Word of Life Church, a Christian congregation located in the heartland of America in St. Joseph, Missouri
Excerpted from his article ” How Does “Dying For Our Sins” Work?”
The Bible is clear, God did not kill Jesus. Jesus was offered as a sacrifice in that the Father was willing to send his Son into our sinful system in order to expose it as utterly sinful and provide us with another way. The death of Jesus was a sacrifice in that sense. But it was not a sacrifice to appease a wrathful deity or to provide payment for a penultimate god subordinate to Justice.
Let me suggest that when we say Jesus died for our sins, we mean something like this: We violently sinned our sins into Jesus, and Jesus revealed the heart of God by forgiving us. When Jesus prayed, “Father, forgive them,” he was not asking God to act contrary to his nature. When Jesus prayed, “Father, forgive them,” he was, as always, revealing the very heart of God!
At the cross we violently sinned our sins into Jesus, and Jesus absorbed them, died because of them, carried them into death, and rose on the third day to speak the first world of the new world: “Peace be with you.”
“We violently sinned our sins into Jesus and Jesus revealed the heart of God by forgiving us”. Love it. How does that babble explain anything? For every pastor or priest there will be some babble attempting to explain how Jesus’ death did something about/to our sins. All of them will make about as much sense as the above. There is no way anyone can explain something that is totally off the wall.
Well said – and well summed up in your last sentence. Thanks for sharing the article.
The synoptics we’re not written to convince someone that Jesus is the Christ the son of God, only John was. The synoptics have a different purpose that is understood by their genre. You give no evidence, you only assert something and expect to convince us of your unsupported assertions. I’m not a smart man, but I do know that the Bible keeps being proven as authentic through archeological discovery.
However. If you look at the greek which supposedly states that Christ died for our sin it uses the word hyper. Above, beyond or over. This could mean that Jesus was beyond or above our sinful actions. We had a choice at the time to save a terrorist or Jesus. Good or evil. We chose evil. This means Jesus forgave our sin because we are below his awareness. When a father sees a child act incorrectly he knows the child is learning but that the childs actions has consequences. The child lives with the consequences but the father is not angry but concerned. We put our love above Gods. Jesus said that he who loves his mother father or children above (hyper) me is against me.
This is a doctrine of Replacement Theology. To say that Jesus Christ did NOT die for all sinners is heresy. Faithful Babtist Church and many other churches who hold this apostate doctrine will be infiltrated with the world. For example any church who believes that God’s plan for Israel and all Jews ended at the cross and have taken over their promises will be subject to spiritual darkness. They will then be approving Replacement Marriage which is same sex marriage splitting the church and the families of the church. Saying Jesus did NOT die for all sinners means that this church is not rightly dividing the Word of God correctly. They are putting in their own man made doctrine in which they will pass away NOT doing the will of God.
The commentator is giving arguments to open closed minds that accept the theology of priests who have been told what scripture means according to there original teachers perception which may be a poor translation or interpretation.
I think your point is well taken. There are theologians of the past who had not the Spirit of God twist the Scriptures as the Apostle Paul warned us about.
One question: All DNA on the planet can be traced to the same markers, except for 3% of homo sapien DNA isn’t found anywhere on the planet. It is extraterrestrial(not of this Earth). So evolution happened to everything else except Homo sapiens. An example is like everything on the planet is coded with the numbers 1-8 just arranged differently, except humans who have 1-9 in their coding. This coding can also be used to trace backwards the number it originated from. Women,which is kinda like DNA with an y on the end, can be traced back 95,000-105,000 years ago. Here’s where it gets real strange. Men goes back over 500,000-600,000 years. So Eve would have married someone that came from another generation that didn’t exist on this planet and had existed there for another 400,000 more years. There was an Adamah and Eve. Adamah means son of God. Angel in paleo Hebrew is one who is sent from the tribe of God- EL Mad’amah. The Angels that fell from heaven found daughters of man beautiful and took them as wives. The tribe of God married women from Man. Make sense yet? Peace be with you
What are your credentials? What have you published in peer reviewed journals? How many scientists concur with your blather?
What is your credentials to read a greek document and say you understand it?
i really feal sorry for your misguidedness, you say the church of truth, what truth. a person who goes thru that much effort to disprove something that is the truth has some sevier underlying psychological problems. i will pray for you..GODSPEED
Prove your accusations and statements.. because they proved it on here. Your . I know this not just by calling you names anybody that ignores facts and just makes up accusations because it’s not going their why is a narcissist.
Wow, are we off base and just like a pagen to take the words of the Bible to say what you want them to say. Yes our sins are forgiven and Yes we are all sinners who have and will sin even you Tom. The payment for sin is death and yes we all will still die but it is not this death that the Bible speaks of. It is the separation from God the Father, now Jesus came so that we would be redeemed and have an opportunity of eternal life. I hope you can figure out the rest but if not contact me, i’ll help you understand what is obviously not clear to you at this moment.
I am not able to figure out the rest. I need you to help me figure out what is not clear to me. You said I should contact you if I need your help. Well, obviously I do. So how do I contact you? I don’t want to use this “Comment” section as a debate platform between the two of us.
“This is my blood of the new covenant which is poured out for many for the FORGIVENESS of SINS”.
“For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and give his life as a RANSOM for many”.
1 Peter 3:18
“For Christ also suffered once for SINS, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was out to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.”
I believe you need to read the Bible before you try to write an article denying the forgiveness of sins through Jesus’ death and resurrection.
Good job, brother. Somebody forgot to read the red letters? It’s o.k. Jesus died for this one, too. God bless you.
People are uncomfortable with the truth. They follow Paul’s words before they follow Jesus and then accuse us of being pagans. Can’t even laugh at them because it’s sad and it’s a crime to use another man’s words to interpret the word of Jesus. It should be the other way around.
There is a messiah, there is NO jesus. There are a FEW prophets that did not sin, Samuel being one.
Evolution is not the cause of life. While evolution does exist, it doe NOT apply to creationism. Evolution apples to a eroding process…. Age and decay for example. Egypt is all
the proof you need that GOD is real. Nothing in our lifetime or before has ever changed into something else from it’s CREATED state. From animals to plants , they will always be what they are… never evolving.
If one man atoned for everyone’s, then why does GOD have to get rid of the wicked when he returns to let all flesh know that he is God?
Evolution is a joke for the peasants.
Preach on peasant, preach on.
I have been saying that Jesus die not die on the cross for our sins for years now and am happy to have come across your blog. I have studied the Bible with priests and bishops in the Catholic faith, and ministers in the Protestant faith, and even studied what Jehovah’s Witness. But all of the Bibles do not include all of the words Jesus spoke, such as, “Your father is not my Father, but my Father has become a father to you,” which Jesus told James in The Second Revelation of James. Now here we go with what religious censorship of religion, with 300 out of 1,000 priests in the year 364 AD deciding what would be included in the Bible. The Second Revelation of James was then termed apocryphal. It is not that these 300 clergymen threw books out of the Bible. They simply did not include the ones that went against their narrow and control-freak view. This was at the time when Rome wanted to conquer the world. What better way than threaten the people with hell, fire, and brimstone; subjugate women – who until this time were serving as priest as Jesus Christ instructed them; and claiming religious authority and making up rules to subjugate all people. I notice that there are Roman Catholic Churches in every town and city in every corner of the world today.
This idea that the Father of Jesus is not also our father is also echoed in today’s modern-day Bible in John 8:44-45 where it reads: “For you are the children of your father, the devil and you love do the evil things he does. He was a murder from the beginning and a hater of truth – there is not one iota of truth in him. When he lies, it is perfectly normal; for he is the father of liars. And so when I tell you the truth, you just naturally don’t believe it!”
Thank you for being a beacon of light in a dark and humanly manipulated religious world. It is a breath of fresh air. We need patience and persistence in helping others fully realize how humanity has been duped over 2,000 centuries. There is more Jesus came to teach us.
Raptures coming. Are going staying if dont get saved the problem you taking church and they just mess every up reading bible for self.
Isaiah 53:3-12..read that prophesy.no denying it
So you want to use Isaiah as your source for truth? OK… then you have to also accept these verses as being true.
Here’s what Isaiah has to say about God’s response to prayer:
“When ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear.” 1:15 – I presume you now accept that.
Here’s another little tidbit from Isaiah:
45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Great guy, your God, intentionally creates evil.
So you can interpret 53z:3-12 as a prophecy of Jesus but I see it as just more nonsense in the wicked brew of total nonsense.
To see all the nonsense of Isaiah, check out this summary: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/is/intro.html, then get back to me about how much of Isaiah we should believe.
The value of a critic cannot be measured! The enormity of your ignorance of the whole of scripture is simply astounding. The whole article, and most comments, is so lacking in scholarship that further response to the individual statements cannot be justified.
Please, please, please give me an example of my ignorance. I agree, it is lacking in scholarship but help me understand what is so wrong with what I say. I’m serious, give me some examples even though you can’t really justify the time it would take.
Are you an atheist? I love atheists. The San Antonio Museum of Art got a new Monet. From a private collection. Rarely seen. I couldn’t wait. I walked into the large museum hall. Hundreds of paintings. After a brief study, I picked out the new Monet, and walked straight up to it from 30-40 yards away.. Beautiful. I was familiar with the artists other works. Not difficult to see Monet’s hand at work in a crowded gallery.of paintings/people.
I, myself, am a creator. I build/make things. I am better at recognizing creativity, though. I went to a city park. I saw the work of the concrete worker in the sidewalk. I saw the sprinkler system, and fountains of the plumber. I saw the construction in the play ground equipment. I saw the artificial placement of sand, and rock that was not natural. The work of a truck driver/equipment operator. I assumed that this was not the work of one man alone. Then I saw the work of God. Trees. Grass. Bushes. Natural soil, and rock. This is the work of a different craftsman. It is easy for us to recognize the workmanship of nature. An atheist just differs in what he calls the workman.
God never paints the same tree twice, although once I did think I saw the same tree twice. Took me several trips back, and forth closely (7-8 trips) examining the 2 trees before I picked up on the subtle differences The second tree had some extra limbs, but darn the trees were close to identical.. .Disgression.
Atheist names for God.
Laws of Nature: “Laus Offnatuire”: Maybe German. Descent engineers. Who made the laws, though?.
Nature: Nat Ure? Nice short easy to remember first name. I see Nature, but wonder who created it. More evidence of an artist. Like Monet. I see the work, but don’t assume the painting painted itself.
Random Chance: God’s first name is Random?
Statistical Probability: Odd name for sure. Would never name any one that.
Evolution: Eva Lutian; Women’s name. This leaves me to wonder why lizards can’t drive cars. The lizard has been around at least as long as us. And there is a Progressive lizard on TV that drives a little car, while selling insurance. BUT I’ve never seen a car driving lizard in person.
Mathematical Statistics: Statistics as a last name NOW. Probably an alias. Will admit God is very good at math. Constantly using math in his creations.
Big Bang: Scientists say everything started with “Big Bang”, so God is a gangsta? Who created the “Big Bang”. Somebody has to make the fireworks.
No. There are no real atheists. It is more of not knowing your car mechanic’s name. The mechanic keeps your car running, and is there, but you are too busy to care about his name.
I will fully admit that God is a better creative artist than author. BUT then again, God had most of the Bible ghost written. If you want to know God, study a bunny. Ridiculous creation. Watch a baby Martin learn to fly. Takes a Martin one day to learn all the skills. Amazing. Go into the desert. God has to keep an eye on the deserts. Too much rain, and it isn’t a desert anymore. Too little rain, and it all dies. A forest is easy to maintain in comparaison. So God hangs in the desert a lot.
Walk out into a desert for a few miles. Sat down. Wait for a few hours. God will normally come by. By admission, God isn’t great conversationalist. Being of few words. Probably too much in his mind. BUT you can expect some short conversation. Often profound.
Best Atheist quote: “God created atheists to keep religious people in check.” Actually said to me by an atheist. You have to love atheists. They are so confused. You can’t deny the existence of God by proving the Bible wrong. Much like building a house by starting in the middle.
Truth Seeker: We have to decide on the question.
1. Does God exist?
2. Then, who is God? What’s he like?
3. How do we commune with him?
At any given moment in time, I can not prove the existence of trains. Hanging at a train track really doesn’t help. Often a dead, or rarely used rail line. Trains are sorta there, or not there, but my friend trains do exist. Much of our lives depends on trains. Deliver stuff. Trains are impressive. Big. Long. Sorta ridiculous to think that something as small as rail line could be used for a 1-2 mile long train. (If you compare the track to an interstate highway, or airport runway.). How can something 4′ 8.5″ wide be used to move something as big as a train? Ridiculous to believe in….unless you have seen a train. And one should always pay attention at a train crossing.
You are mistaken, I am not TruthSayer. I don’t share his belief and I am my own person, and would never call myself that either.
I am not going to speculate if Paul suffered PTSD. He is a Pharisee and Jesus cursed the Pharisees 7 seven times for not following the Law. Paul understood the sacrificial concept so probably took that to spill that Jesus dies for our sin. This directly contradicts what Jesus is attempting to teach. What Paul has done (using a little truth to digress and spill lies and untruth) has probably cost many Christians their lives and souls in my opinion. It is not so much Paul started arrogant. It is what he has said and done that caused much harm and damage to Christianity. You could attribute his so-called journey to PTSD or arrogance. The fact is that he spilled untruth. GOD is TRUTH and no impurity is allowed. Even a tiny untruth is not allowed in HIS presence. His so-called self-proclaimed of meeting Jesus on the road to Damascus is highly questionable. You perspective of him is quite interesting. Ask yourself how come Paul have been given more importance compare to the 12 disciples that followed Jesus around and were taught by him first hand? Why churches, pastors are so willing to quote what Paul said rather than Jesus? I don’t believe the so-called Pauline Christianity or agree with the mainstream Christianity. From my observation most Christians tend to follow Paul’s teaching rather Jesus. Not here to argue about Paul with anyone. I could contemplate the perspective you have about him but doubt I would agree to that.
Dietary Restraint. This is not my point. Peter was in a trance, not Paul. There is more to the disciples of Jesus that people know. Anyway, not going to get into that as most would not believe.
Abraham is not perfect, a man of flaws. No one is in this fallen world. I do not know enough of him to comment on his polytheistic belief and monotheistic worship. I do find his dishonesty regarding his relationship with Sarah questionable. So did Isaac, he lied about Rebecca being his sister rather his wife. Most of the people in the bible are flawed very few (if any) were/are righteousness. Nevertheless GOD works with them in the hope they would walk in obedience with HIM. Also, understand GOD knows EVERYTHING of anyone. There could be things about Abraham we do not know but GOD does. Also, we use our human standard to judge someone not GOD’s standard.
Interesting perspective on Abraham attempting to kill Isaac as a form of human sacrifice. I tend to believe it is more a test if he loves GOD more than his own son rather than a human sacrifice. Remember GOD’s thoughts are always higher than us and HE knows what is best for us. HE always comes first and provides only the best to GOD. Nevertheless, something to think about. There are quite a few things you have brought up about Abraham, not going to debate or argue. Abraham was reluctant to send Hagar and Ismael away, however, GOD told him to do what Sarah wants and promised Abraham that HE would care for Ismael just as he would care for Isaac as well. I don’t know enough to say that Abraham is primitive, however, he is a follower of GOD, the Creator of ALL.
Regarding who Moses or Mohammad actually worships, I believe they both worship the ONE TRUTH GOD as well, not some local deities or wannabes gods and definitely don’t know enough to comment on the “J”, “Y” or “E”. Never misuse the name of GOD. This I do know and what belongs to GOD is HIS and there are some things only HE KNOWS and just for HIM alone. As to being jealous of who? I tend to believe GOD is protective of HIS own people. HE has no competition. HE created EVERYTHING. However, he is fiercely protective of HIS people. One definition of jealous is fiercely protective. The thing to remember is that whatever GOD does is for HIS people’s benefit and it is for us to choose if we want to walk in obedience with HIM. Whatever way anyone chooses, there is always consequences.
Thank you for providing a different perspective. Once again, not TruthSayer here. Disconnect.
1. Much of the Bible is taught wrong. To include “Pauline CHristainity”:. Rapture: Word is never mentioned in the Bible. Nor concept, yet it is a mainstream teaching. “Meet Christ in the air” is the basis, however you also meet helicopters in the air, and you aren’t doing the flying. Heaven comes to earth in the form of a 12K cubed structure with many mansions, or rooms in it. Yet, we are told that we go to heaven above. The Mohammedans are correct in this instance. A return to paradise. The Garden of Eve (on earth).
2. Abraham, and Isaac: We forget that Isaac was there, and the effect that the attempted sacrifice had on him. Isaac knew he was the promised child. Probably very arrogant. The event would have had an effect on him. Abraham had dug a series of wells, and the locals took over the wells after Abraham died. Isaac could have fought for the wells, but he didn’t. Isaac dug new wells instead. Isaac had caution, and avoided risk. After Isaac’s death, his sons fought for the wells. Perhaps, the attempted sacrifice had less to do with God, and Abrham, but was a lesson to an arrogant boy that needed attitude adjustment.
3. I also believe that Moses, and Mohammed worshiped the one true God. Mose’s thought that God was a desert God doesn’t change anything.
4. You didn’t respond to my suggestion of studying Jesus. Finding a flaw in his character. The 4 testimonies of Christ. I believe the Koran says Christ will be the judge in the end. To include Mohammed? The messiah: the messenger by who we are measured. If we are going to discuss CHritainity, then we need to discuss Jesus. Mohammed did no personal miracles, so for your benefit, and ease, skip over any miracle part, or any part of history/time/location. A red letter edition of the Bible with Christ’s words highlighted will make for fast easy reading. IE: Just study Christ’s teachings.
5. God wants to work with us. The concept of “sacrifice religion” is central to man’s beliefs through time. The sacrifice is the basis for “straw religions’ ‘, (The Golden Bough” book reference) Man has believed for eons throughout cultures that a sacrifice is needed to appease the gods. The theme is central. Would merit discussion, but we will need to work through Christ first.
On Sun, Oct 31, 2021 at 3:17 AM The Church Of Truth™ wrote:
> No Name To Be Provided commented: “Marlon, You are mistaken, I am not > TruthSayer. I don’t share his belief and I am my own person, and would > never call myself that either. I am not going to speculate if Paul suffered > PTSD. He is a Pharisee and Jesus cursed the Pharisees 7 seven tim” >
I sense some hesitancy in studying Jesus, and getting to “know” him, so I will help you get started. Let’s start in Mark. Mark was Jesus’s friend, so Mark is a nice friendly book. Picture a friend telling someone else about you. Maybe testifying for you in court, or to an authority. A friend would start, where the friendship began. Mark isn’t legalistic like Matthew, so better beginning for you/me.
Jesus does some interesting things to attract Mark’s attention. Jesus starts his ministry. Interacts with some authorities. But the first teaching that I find truly interesting is Mark 4. Parable of the Sower. This is a stand up comedy routine for farmers. A joke with a meaning. Jesus is telling a bunch of farmers about farming.
Cultural background: 80-90% of society are farmers. Rough life. 30% Roman tax on harvest. 30% of crop needs to be replanted for a 3 fold harvest. 30% to landowner. 10% for the farmer to live on. This would be a bad year farming.
A good experienced farmer could try to split 50/50 with the land owner. The Roman tax couldn’t be avoided. A 10 fold harvest is exceptional with an average of 3-7 fold harvest. If a farmer did manage a 10 fold harvest in a really good year, the farmer could expect the Roman tax, and land owner share to increase. Farmers were held in perpetual poverty.
Mark 4; 4: “fell along the path” The crowd perks up. The apparently idiot farmer is spilling his seed as he walks to the field. Does his bag have a hole in it. Why isn’t the farmer paying attention. This isn’t going well for the farmer. “the birds came and ate it all up” Now, the moron farmer can’t even go back, and pick up the seed. Darn birds, eating the seed. Birds are a problem for sure in planted fields. They peck around, and eat up seed, but now they are getting ALL the seed. Doesn’t the farmer see the birds. you have to bury the seeds to hide from the birds. Clown. 5: “some fell on rocky places” What? The idiots is planitng on rocks. Why would you do this? Clown farmer. “soil” was shallow” The crowd is starting to laugh. The farmer didn’t properly plow the field either. No wonder. The field was apparently full of rocks, so you can’t plow. 6: “plants were scorched” So, the weather isn’t cooperating with our farmer either. No rain. hot weather. This guy is going to starve next year. 7: “fell among the thorns” This idiot is throwing seed into thorn bushes, too. Hedgerows of thorn bushes grew between fields, so the farmer moron is throwing seed into the bushes. How can it grow? How can you harvest in the thorn bushes. Crazy talk. 8: “seed fell on good ground” So, our idiot manage to get some seed in the right place, finally. “produced a crop of 30, 60, or 100 times. The crowd laughs back: “No way.” slapping their sides.
The parable is a rather dry joke. We get the deeper meaning, because we lack the cultural humor of peasant farming. Okay, so God has a rather dry, off sense of humor. A take away here is perhaps, we shouldn’t take ourselves too seriously.
I’ll admit the next joke, Jesus tells (parable of the Mustard seed) is funnier. If I have sparked your interest, respond, for the next joke. Still dry, though. “Wheat and Tares” is also sorta cute.
And Matthew 26:26-29 Christ describes what the bread and wine would represent:
Particularly the wine represents his blood for the blood of the covenant which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sin. So that verse in a way Christ presents it is Him dying on the cross for our sins.
So saying that he wouldn’t remember is like saying God can’t have him write exactly what God wants. If we see God as the all knowing being who created the world, then having things written out such as the Gospels and other books by these particular men whether after the fact or not can still be done because God isn’t us and He can have things happen that we may not believe is reality.
“because God isn’t us and He can have things happen that we may not believe is reality”
OK… let’s say I buy your premise. Then are you willing to give God “credit” for all the horrible things that have happened, are happening and will happen?
Things like birth defects, earthquakes, pestilence, floods, drought, wildfire, hurricanes, etc. And then there are those atrocities that God permits due to “free will”. Things like priests raping little boys, rape, kidnapping, torture, incest,. “Free will”. The Christian invention to absolve God for all the evil in the world. Why doesn’t he just kill Satan and give us a sin free life?
Real relationships are mutual. If God overrode our free will we could not be made in His image, and our relationship with Him would be something He created. It is silly to argue with somebody like you because you will never admit to being wrong. The devil knew scripture well, too. But he was jealous and pitiful and selfish and will soon get what he deserves. He already committed the unforgivable sin. You still have time to repent. Eternity is a long time. You do not have to believe in Jesus, but He believes in you. BTW, the point of looking at Isaiah is not about Isaiah the man. It is about how many years past between Isaiah’s life, and Jesus’ life and the amazing number of prophecies Jesus fulfilled to the letter. You are special. Even Ghandi said he believed in Jesus but was opposed to how so many Christians do not act like him. That I agree with. I pray that you have a Damascus road encounter with Jesus, because He died for your sins too. You could have a future in apologetics.
I agree with TruthSlayer, the things that you have listed as questions are those from a limited knowledge of who God the Father is, who the Creator of the Heavens and Earth still is. If someone is born with a birth defect which is not caused by man’s evil ambition, is used by the Father to show HIS Glory. You see you think the same as the democrates, that everything is about you but it’s not, EVERYTHING is about Jesus and the sooner you can understand that the better you will be. Do you know the scripture verse in Isaiah chapter 55 and verse 8 through 9. try that on for size and then ask your question again, keeping that verse in mind and tell me what you learned.
Like many, you struggle with the letters of Paul. Paul was not a prophet. The writings of Paul must be taken together as a struggle. Paul’s first writing is an arrogant. He brags about his accomplishments. Then Paul’s writing become angry. Then Paul becomes depressed. Paul struggles with his belief. He preaches no circumcision, but later he has a follower circumsized. Paul fights with the other followers. Argues with the church at Jerusalem. He argues with Silus over Timothy. In the end, Paul comes to understanding, and acceptance. Paul’s writings are a journey into belief. Paul often struggles with what he believes. Paul tries to make sense of it all. Paul starts with working your way into Heaven/Paradise then changes to God’s grace into heaven/paradise. Paul’s writings are merely letters to others. Accept them for what they are. A personal journey/struggle into belief. Does Mohammed ever speak of Paul? If you do not follow this, then Jesus Christ Christianity evolves into a Pauline Christianity. My Muslim friend, you do well to study. You will never be a Christian, but you can be a Muslim Christian/Christian Muslim. Or perhaps a Jewish, Muslim Christian. Does not Mohammed honor all the prophets of God? Mohammed is the last of the prophets. Mohammed by his own mouth is not the greatest of the prophets. Mohammed says that Jesus will be given greater power/position in the judgement. You can not accept Muhammad without accepting Jesus.
Well written Marlon. Who are you? You are obviously a student of the bible. I have never seen Paul explained so clearly and concisely. Kind of confirms my understanding of Paul. He was a nobody who had a hallucination or sun stroke and who espoused all sorts of nonsense throughout his travels. Actually, Jesus would have rejected Paul’s final belief that salvation came only to those who accepted the cockamamie idea that “Jesus died for your sins”. Jesus recited many different paths to salvation. None of which said: “You will have to believe that I died for your sins”.
Like you, I am a student of the Holy Books. Jesus was the MESSIAH. My understanding, like Mohammed, Moses, and Abraham, a MESSENGER from GOD. But more: Jesus was the MEASURE by which we will be measured. If you try to live like Christ (CHRISTENED/ANOINTED/CHOSEN), then you will do well. Christian: Like Christ. You do well to follow Jesus’s example. The example leads to Heaven/Paradise. Accepting that “Jesus died for your sins: is the starting point of a rather simplistic belief for rather primitive man. Man understood substitution sacrifice. An animal whose life is sacrificed gives food to man. A corn stalk dies giving food to man. A living tree gives us wood for heat/building. God, who is complex, trie to make it simple for us. Man understands sacrifice. Man sees the winter, and recognizes resurrection/new life in the spring. John 3:16 states “Begotten” son of God. Begotten is begat as in goats begat goats. God got Jesus from man much as shepherd gets goats from other goats. The shepherd owns the goats, but the shepherd doesn’t breed directly with the goats Jesus was the adopted Son of God, and demonstrated the ability for all of us to become the inherited Sons of God. Abraham was polytheistic. Moses gave 10 commandments to the Jews. By God’s word, God owed a prophet to Abraham’s other sons (Leviticus inheritance law), thus Mohammed.. Moses gave us laws not kill each other, nor steal, nor take each other wives. Jesus advanced Moses’s law. Simplified the law: 1. Love God. 2. Treat each other as we would want to be treated. IE: Love each other. Mohammed brought the way to be right with God (Islam) to Abraham’s other sons. We could discuss, whether Christ was resurrected. Personally, I think so, although the Koran/Mohammed does not specifically state either way directly to my knowledge/study. The birth, death, resurrection of Christ must not be important, if not mentioned in the Koran. The message of Christ is important. I will verify my belief in the resurrection of Christ with the reaction of the Romans. The Romans didn’t mess with the growing Jerusalem church after Christ’s death. Something shook the Romans up, otherwise, the Romans would have rounded up the remaining followers of Christ, and executed them. Followers of Islam typically don’t believe in Christ crucification, and resurrection. None the less, this does not change the message of Christ, nor the example that Jesus set for us. Unfortunately, Christianity was quickly corrupted. The Jews attempted to make money off of prophetable temple worship. Then the Christain’s began fighting much like Shiites, and Sunni’s. Constantinople stopped the fighting by establishing the “Holy Trinity” concept. (UnBiblical.) The Catholic church took over. Omnipotent, all knowing God knew this, and sent the final prophet, Mohammed to make the way straight again. I invite you to accept Christ as what he is/was. Mohammed believed in Christ as evidenced in the Holy Koran. You can not be a good Muslim without being a good Christian. Mohammed told what was spoken to him, and for this Mohammed is great. Christ was the example, and did as he was told. Much to contemplate my friend.. I invite you to reread the 4 testimonies of Christ. Ignore the miracles. Study only the teachings. Matthew: a militant. Mark: a friend. Luke: an investigator. John: a brother, or cousin. UNderstand that part of the Bible has been corrupted by man, but the Bible is largely correct.. The Koran is less corruptible, since it is largely a poem with rhyme, and flow in the original language. Subtleties are lost in both Holy Books with translation. If you find error in any of Christ’s teachings, let me know. If you find any contradiction in Christ’s teachings from the Holy Koran, let me know. Remember, Christ was teaching how to be an adopted Son of God, whereas Mohammed like Moses was giving/reestablishing/advancing the law.to man.
Wow… once again, interesting stuff. I would love to talk to you more and get your insights Any way we can communicate without having to go through this website? I have a semi-secret email address that I check every once in a while. Contact me there and we can establish a line of communication.
Address is TCS1939@hotmail.com. I’ll check it consistently for a few days.
To others: please don’t jump on – this is for marlon.
Interesting perspective about Paul, Marlon. I tend to believe Paul is the wolf in the sheep clothing Jesus warns his disciples. Paul of the tribe of Benjamin and Benjamin is a “ravenous wolf'”, devouring and conquer (Gen 49:27). What Paul preached had led many so-called Christians to believe Jesus dies for their sin and by grace they are save and no work is required. This contradicts what Jesus has taught. Also Paul tends to start with a simple truth and digresses to something totally different and he has all these convoluted sayings when Jesus speaks concisely and precisely with no contradictions. GOD is truth so any untruth that spoken by all these self-claimed wannabe prophets cannot be tolerated.
As for 1 Peter 3:18, I questioned that caused. As Peter also sold out when he decided to “kill and eat them” claiming that he went into a trance and no one was there to witness to what he claimed (Acts 10 9:15). A matter must established by 2 to 3 witnesses and Jesus said he did not come to abolish the Law. Since when are Christians allowed to consume anything unclean and impure. GOD does not contradict Himself and if HE wants to ask His people to “kill and eat”, anything impure and clean, it would be make known in an appropriate manner, and not in a trance. Anything is possible with GOD. I shall never attempt to speak on His behalf. However, if one to understand GOD way of doing things, it seems something is not right here.
Additionally to your comment John 16:14, Jesus predicts the coming of the Holy Spirit. I doubt that he is referring to Mohammad. This is just my opinion and I could be completely incorrect. Not debating or arguing, no interest in that. Importantly is the message from Jesus, Mohammad and all the prophets. I do tend to believe a REAL Jew/Christian/Muslim would embrace the teachings of the 3 Abrahamic beliefs. 3 different covenants yet taught basically the same thing in my opinion.
There are so-called people who knows stuff and know what is going on. However, they sold themselves out. The devil’s MO is always divide and conquer, infiltration, twisting the facts or truth with lies etc. As Jesus said, you know that by their fruits.
You mentioned some interesting comments for contemplation. Thank you. All 3 Abrahamic beliefs are related and and they worship the same GOD in my opinion and you cannot separate one from other to fully comprehend the truth. GOD is GOD and there is only ONE TRUTH GOD and it is HE who created EVERYTHING.
In one of your replies, you mentioned “Abraham was polytheistic.” Why you made such a comment? Abraham, a monotheist, who was not a polytheist, (Quran 6:161) and he is not an idolater.
1. Pauiline Christainity vs. Jesus Christ Christainity: Major differences. As taught. However, if you take the letters as letters written during a journey, then we would hope in the end, Paul got “his fight” complete (2 TIM 4:7). Paul starts arrogant, prideful, boastful. Paul caused trouble in Jerusalem, and wasn’t accepted. Paul was troubled, and troubling. Often contradicts himself as he journeys through belief. Correct to weigh Jesus Christ’s words more. I’m pretty sure that Paul suffered PSTD from Stephen’s death. Guilt.
2. Dietary Restraints: John 3:6. “That which is flesh is flesh, and that which is spiritual is spiritual.” GOD would give a physical law (to primitives), but it was actually a spiritual law. Don’t survive off of the bottom dwellers of society who survive on death/decay. Don’t survive off the poor working man/creatures. Don’t survive out of carrion/death. Don’t survive off of those that engage in the destruction of others. Don’t survive off of the pain of others. If you reinterpret diet restraints as spiritual restraints, where does it lead? Much of the old testament law was written in this way. The LAW needs to be applied spiritually. What does circumcision represent spiritually? The physical disqualifications for priestly service represent spiritual defects. (LEV. law.) Paul struggled in the spiritual, although adept at the physical restraints of being Sadducee (court authority and Pharisee (religious authority). Paul’s trance; Paul needed help transitioning to the spiritual. The things that Paul did before, that HE thought were important, and sources of pride were not important, and didn’t matter, spiritually.
3. Abraham: Polytheestic: GOD required Abraham to prove his faith/loyalty/belief to him by offering his son, ISAAC. A son’s sacrifice was offered to the GOD that you believed in the most. Human sacrifice. The supreme sacrifice made to the most powerful GOD. GEN 15:2: “Oh, Sovereign Lord…” AS IN: Ruling KIng God (over the other lesser gods?). Polythesietic, but true only worshipped one God. Not an idolater. Plenty of references to polytheism. Sovereign God (as in the ruling God). God Almighty. God of your father (needed identification to differentiate from other gods). Abraham was 99 years old, when the covenant was made. Abraham cared for the idols in Terah’s store. Abraham prayed to/cared for/offered sacrifices to the idols, and when the idols didn’t answer his prayers, he smashed the idols. In some accounts, Abraham took the idols, initially. In other accounts, Abrahma claimed the idols got into a fight over a savory meat offering, and destroyed each other. Abraham was called by the one true, ruling God.after frustration with the false gods. Polytheiestic belief, but montheistic worship. The old testament Hebrews were polythetiestic. “I am a jealous GOD (Jealous of whom exactly?). You will have no other gods before me (What other gods?). Primitive Polytheiestic Beliefs: Gods were locally land based deities. You had to travel to a certain area to worship/be blessed by[ a certain God who controlled that area. GEN 12:1. Mose’s GOD travelled with the group in a box, (mobile temple) and could overwhelm local deities. New religious concept. Even astrology: Israelis wanted to worship the Golden Calf (Taurus), but Moses wanted (Aries: dawn of new age). And then Jesus’ followers ushered in a new age of Pisces. An age lasting 2K years. Primitive beliefs from astrology working their way in. Israeli’s felt they could cross a border, and as farmers worship the local weather deity, Baal. Favorable for drops, until Elijah calls for a drought proving JE ruled over Baal. 1 Kings 17. It is highly probable that Abraham followed in the common polytheistic beliefs. Monotheism wasn’t really a grasped concept during the time period. This doesn’t change Abraham’s faith..
Like most characters/persons in the Bible, Abraham was a flawed person. By today’s standards, horrible. Abrahma pimped his wife out on occasion. GEN 12:11 (Left Egypt wealthy, so Sarah was popular.). Lied about his wife being his sister. The pharaoh didn’t sleep with her. Not sure about the other Egyptian princes, though. Kicked out of Egypt with “All that they had”. Abraham entered Egypt during a famine. Broke. Don’t hold Abraham to the same standard as modern. Wives were property to be used accordingly. For profit, if necessary. Abraham held people as slaves. Was a raider/pillager/plunderer, and thus a murderer, and thief. Slept with the house servants. And put his ex-lover, and her child out into the desert to die, when they became inconvenient. Willing to engage in human sacrifice. BUT you can’t hold Abraham to today’s standards. Abraham was a primitive.
I’ve changed my course on Islam. It seems the verses in the Koran are weighted differently. The verses from later revelations carry more weight than the earlier verses. I was introduced to 3 phases of Islam. 1. Get along with neighbors peaceably. 2. Make preparations for Jihad quietly. 3. Engage in Jihad, once strength is built up. IE: Follow the example of Mohammed in his course to domination. Always felt Mohammed was the law giver to Ishmael, and other 5 sons of Abraham. A law giving prophet to these children of Abraham would be required by God’s inheritance law. Moses was a warrior prophet to Israelis. In probability, Moses exported from Egypt with a belief in an Egyptian War God, along the nature of “Set”, but called “J'”, or “Y”. Polytheisst belief, but montheistic worship. (like Abraham.) Moses apparently discovered this minor deity god in a temple, and liked the concept. War-like desert god. Again, a territorial god that had to be worshipped in the desert. Exodus 7:16. The course of belief between early Judaism, and Islam are running parellel. Violence prevailing. Later in the conquered promised land, Mose’s God “J” was combined with monotheistic worship of a local land God called “E”. Yawyeh and Elohim combined to make Jehovah (JE).
Of course, Jesus is the ultimate prophet. Jesus had raised armies of 5K, but refused to fight several times.. Jesus taught “peace”. Laid down his life peaceably. Jesus is the messiah. The messenger of God by whom we are measured. If Iam going to follow an example of how to live, and seek God, I will follow Christ’s example. You have 4 testimonies of Christ’s teachings. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Perhaps, you can discredit one testimony. (You don’t like John.) I therefore ask that you refute one of Christ’s teachings. Paul is definitely arguable.
Enjoying the correspondence.
On Sat, Oct 30, 2021 at 2:59 AM The Church Of Truth™ wrote:
> No Name To Be Provided commented: “Interesting perspective about Paul, > Marlon. I tend to believe Paul is the wolf in the sheep clothing Jesus > warns his disciples. Paul of the tribe of Benjamin and Benjamin is a > “ravenous wolf'”, devouring and conquer (Gen 49:27). What Paul preached had > ” >
Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit of God. Prior to being filled with the Holy Spirit, he did no miracles or healing or teachings. After being filled with the Spirit, he overcame sin. Satan offered everything to him. The same things we are offered in this world while we are here, Jesus was offered, and he turned them all down. He overcame every temptation to sin. He overcame his flesh and its desires of pleasure and comforts. Jesus told us to follow Him. He told his disciples that he would send the Holy Spirit to us after he died. That’s why he died. Because of what he did, we now have the gift of the Holy Spirit available to us. The same Holy Spirit that empowered Jesus to overcome the world, it’s temptations and ultimately, sin. Jesus tells us numerous times that to those who overcome, he will give to eat of the tree of life. To those who don’t overcome, the lake of fire. Overcoming sin should be the most important desire of our hearts while we are here in this flesh and because of Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit, we can overcome the world and have everlasting life with him. It’s just a choice and we have been given the power to choose. What we choose is up to us, but know this, we WILL be judged based on our choice. We will all stand before our maker when this life ends.
“We will be judged based on our choice”
Not what John 3:16 says. “..that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life”. So that says to me, it doesn’t matter what you do, you will not be judged. If you believe Jesus died for your sins, you’re in! Nothing else matters. Paul also espouses this nonsense; i.e. the only way to heaven is to believe that Jesus died for your sins.
All of us carry within our minds an “operating system” composed of essential paradigms that are foisted upon all of us via our early childhood indoctrination into our native culture, which we generally assimilate concurrently with the learning of our native language. For all of us, to varying degrees, this includes paradigms about the nature of life and reality that come to us specifically via our family’s particular religious roots — whether or not our family of origin believes in or practices that religion. In my experience, all of these inherited paradigms involving any and all concerns are arranged like a web of interconnected associations which together define the way we normally experience our every day reality. It is this web that I am calling “the operating system,” and we all have one, woven of the stuff of memories, that is specific to our own history and personal formative experiences.
My own religious roots came out of Euro-American Lutheranism. My family of origin was agnostic, so I was taught as I grew up to question everything, while granting potential, or possibility, to everything until proven impossible (or inaccurate) via my own persistent internal inquiry. That I was raised to think in this way, to question carefully and thoughtfully, to look deeply within, rather than to blindly accept and believe, is something for which I will always be grateful.
Last week, by virtue of some triggering event that has drifted out of memory now, I suddenly became acutely aware of how my own operating system had been unconsciously centered in one particular area of associations around the Christian paradigm “Jesus died for your sins.” This realization took me by surprise, as this was something I had thought I had settled long ago. As it was, I suddenly became acutely aware, once more of how many unspoken and poorly defined assumptions about who I am, why I’m here, the essential nature of my self and character, and what I might expect to experience when my body dies, were all on a day to day basis and to varying degrees revolving around this most of the time unconsciously held idea that an enlightened wise man name Jesus had courageously chosen to embrace a destiny which, through his sufferance of a prolonged and painful death, supposedly absolved humankind of their hopelessly inborn nastiness, greed, and thoughtlessly violent and dominating nature. I saw again also that it wasn’t just me who had been unconsciously infected by this idea, but that just about everyone in America is operating subconsciously out of this paradigm in one way or another, either by acceptance of it, or by resistance to it. That is, I also remembered and understood in that moment that we are tied to the paradigms with which we are identified, not just through our potential acceptance of them, but that we can be attached to and unconsciously influenced or controlled by a paradigm by virtue of our rejecting it as well. So that whether we reject a paradigm or accept it, either way any paradigm or set of paradigms we inherit culturally will influence the kinds of thoughts we have, and the choices we make in deciding what or what not to do in any situation that is related conceptually to or potentially influenced by those paradigms. The influence of these paradigms, therefore, is not strictly dependent upon our belief in them, but rather very simply upon our having been exposed to them at some formative time in our development as individuals.
With regards to this particular concept, I myself had never accepted the idea that the horrific crucifixion of Jesus “absolved me of my sins.” Instead, it seemed clear to me that whatever consequences ensue from the choices I make and the actions I take in life, that is *my* “cross to bear,” my responsibility to bear it, always — no one else’s. That the whole point of Jesus’ teachings was to show us how to be better human beings in this life: to make better choices based on love and acceptance, caring for the suffering of others and protecting the weak, sharing with those in need, and living a commitment to a non-judgmental attitude towards others, all to the best of our ability. In other words, what made sense to me in contemplating the crucifixion is that whatever Jesus may or may not have been up to in his life, he taught me that I myself am and always will be responsible for my own choices and actions, and that my purpose in life in part is to learn by his example how to “carry that cross” responsibly and with love.
Though I am most definitely still learning, I settled this issue for myself 50 years ago, as a teenager, through intense internal inquiry (some might call it prayer — I don’t, I call it inquiry), and at that time I also reckoned, though I could only guess at the time, that the idea that “Jesus died for your sins,” was most likely a concept made up by the latter patriarchs of the Christian church as it existed at that time in Rome, or perhaps later… specifically, I reasoned, those probably being the same patriarchs who were responsible for codifying our current version of the New Testament. I’m no scholar of Christianity, however (I’m far more informed on the concepts, practice and development of Taoism — and Buddhism), and never have been, but I reckoned this concept of a saint giving his life through immense suffering to “save us from our inherent (and never otherwise to be escaped from) sins” was a perfect mechanism by which men claiming authority and influence with regards to some all-powerful deity could enforce control over human beings through guilt and fear. That such an idea fit perfectly as part of a scheme to bind people to a set of religious doctrines or rules, dangling before us what could only be the most powerful of carrots and sticks, our fear of our own mortality, and the possibility of one’s subjugation to some kind of immense and eternal suffering, vs the possibility of the enjoyment of immortality in some kind of idealized and, of course *exclusive,* environment. And that by so by infecting and manipulating people’s minds with fear, these powerful men could insure the acquisition of their own material comfort, prosperity, and physical safety, through the stealing and hoarding of the hard-earned resources of those whom they sought to control through their guaranteed assurance of “rescue from Hell.” And through their accruing wealth, then also gain political power and authority over their community as well. The ultimate grift! Truly inspired — truly “evil,” as in totally opposed to that which makes Life alive (as in ‘evil =.”live” spelled backwards’), and generally opposed to everything the Master taught. The whole conceptual knot so presented robs us of our ability to be in touch with our original innocence, and blinds us to the profound love manifesting the incredible intelligence revealed at the heart of the logic which makes Life possible.
The purpose of my comment then is really just to thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for taking the time to explain the history of the origins of this paradigm, as well as critiquing the faulty logic behind it. I’m not entirely sure where understanding how this idea came about is going to take me, but I can’t shake the sense right now that at some point it’s going to matter very much, if only for my own comprehension and growth as a soul.
Given that this paradigm describes a reality that never had to be, nor ever really was, it seems of the utmost importance to participate in finding some way to undo both the illusion itself and its very real consequences… to assist in freeing human beings from this colossal lie which has been perpetrated upon them. Not only does this great beast of a lie cause us to destroy by our own hands our own inherent experience of goodness and joy in existence, it’s led us to indulge ourselves in the heedless destruction of Life itself, as it is being expressed in this beautiful garden of a planet, of which we are a part, and it a part of us… along with the destruction of the peace and innocent souls of all the splendid, amazing creatures here, who have no choice but to share this world with us, regardless of the cruelty we perpetrate upon them. Most of all, it is that destruction and suffering of the innocents which I personally want to see ended as quickly as possible.
By your own work here, and your efforts in revealing what is true in this early history of the teachings of Christianity, you are most definitely contributing to that endeavor. And again, I thank you, most sincerely, for it.
OMG Flying Brian
What a treatise! Interesting, insightful, fun to read.
I would love to chat with you one on one via Zoom or something like that.
I hesitate to reveal my name or email address because I don’t want the public to know who I am. Cleaner that way.
I’m thinking… keep checking in the response window to your comment.
When I was a teenager I asked my catholic grandmother (the only practicing catholic in my immediate family) how she could be a catholic with all those rules and regulations and theological rigor. She chuckled and said, “oh that stuff doesn’t really matter that much. It’s what’s in your heart that counts.” There is still room in Christianity for those who seek the Kingdom of God in their hearts. If your heart is open you can’t miss the message in the synoptic gospels. Jesus taught us to pray. “Our father who art in heaven…. thy kingdom come, thy will be done.” It’s the first thing on the list. For me, however you want to slice it, Jesus died for a stand, the Kingdom of God for the hearts of the world. He stood at the right hand. There is no need to intellectualize.
And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand.
And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.
And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth.
And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.
And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy him.
From Wikipedia “Free Will in Antiquity”:
The ancient Hebrews distinguished between voluntary (willful) choices and actions, versus compelled actions, but the Hebrew scriptures are permeated with the notion that the will is always bound to the heart, and determined by the condition of one’s heart. For the Ancient Hebrews, the “heart” (levav) is the “seat of volition,” the locus of a person’s desires, preferences, proclivities, inclinations, and motives. Humans ”will” and ”choose”, and do so voluntarily, but they do what they do according to the status of their hearts, which determines their desires, preferences, proclivities, inclinations, and motives. For the will to be changed, according to Ezekiel, God must first change the heart (Ezekiel 36:26-27)
Jesus was not a mind/body dualist. He was a Jewish peasant. Unlike Paul he had no Greek education or Roman citizenship.
Interesting but what is your point? Did you see the section on “Jesus Does Not Love You”? Jesus did a lot of things that were not in accordance with the general perception of him. For instance, he speaks in parables so that some will not understand and will not enter the kingdom. Explain that.
Such blasphemy. There are those who call themselves jews but are of the synagogue of satan. You won’t fool anyone that has the Holy spirit leading them. At then end you will find your selves fighting against God himself. Why? God is perfect. That simple.
💥 Christians don’t follow Jesus, they follow the Assumptions of the Disciples.
🏆 How can we trust anything that the Disciples wrote about Jesus and Faith, when Jesus was constantly on them for their lack of Faith?
Jesus asked them to sit with him for an hour, they couldn’t do it, they were incompetent.
🔥Jesus did miracles, he said in order to do miracles have faith (Matthew 17:20), Christians claim to have faith, yet can do no miracles. Either Christians have no Faith or Faith has been misunderstood by the Christians. How much less faith is needed in order to move the Mustard Seed, and Christians can’t even do that.
💥The greatest lie ever told was that Jesus died for everyone’s sins, when he was really crucified for being a Sorcerer. (Mark 3:22).He was crucified for the same reason witches were burned at the stake (Exodus 22:18), to suppress occult knowledge & to keep people as Slaves in this Death Cult that plagues Humanity. Jesus was trying to teach his coven of warlocks how to evolve thru Sorcery & pass the limitations of a god, to become a living god (Psalms 82:6) & was murdered for it.
🔬I blame the Disciples, because of their Jewish Indoctrination which blinded them from understanding what Jesus was trying to convey. Because of their asinine assumptions about Jesus and Faith, it became the foundation of all Christian beliefs.
Truly the Blind leading the Blind.
🛐Indoctrination blinds Christians from the Truth.
🏆Exodus 15:3, The Lord is a Man of War. (God isn’t god, it’s always been a man.)
🏆The Serpent told the truth in the Garden. “No you will not die you will become like gods knowing Good and Evil.”
God lied. What was the Deception? Their choices were Ignorance and Slavery or Freedom and Knowledge?
(Give me Liberty or give me Death.)
Eve chose wisely.
🏆Since we have eaten from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, we inherently know what is right and wrong, why do we need a Bible to dictate what is Moral when we are born with it?
God endorses Slavery in Exodus 21 and other Atrocities (www.evilbible.com)
We recognize Slavery as wrong because our morality is higher than God’s.
💖A Devil signifies malevolence, the Bible is chock full of malevolence, Christians Worship this Devil, therefore Christians are Devil Worshippers.
Jesus Died For Our Sins? Jesus died for our sins? ~cf. Romans 4:25, I Peter 3:18, I Corinthians 15:3, I John 2:2. No one can die for the sins of another, which includes Original Sin [Gratuitous Sin, Vicarious Redemption, Ancestral Sin, Inheritable Sin]. ~cf. Exodus 32:30-35, Deuteronomy 24:16, Ezekiel 18:1, Ezekiel 4:20-24, Ezekiel 26:21, Ezekiel 18:20, Psalm 49:7, Jeremiah 31:29-30. Deuteronomy 24:16.
well, but it may be possible that “Christ” died, when i killed Him, when i chose the world over doing the right thing, however you might wanna put it
So many faulty assumptions on this page… too many to list at once.
I did find entertaining the comment about Paul and evolution… never mind the fact that evolution wasn’t even dreamed up by Darwin until the 1800s. How was Paul supposed to be aware of evolution when the idea never existed while he was alive? I got a good laugh out of that one.
Anyway – regarding your main focus, Paul is not the sole source about Christ’s death for sins. Beforehand, it was spoken that Jesus would be the one who takes the sin away from the world. Jesus Himself said He was a ransom for many, and it was necessary for Him to suffer. Peter preached about Christ’s death, resurrection, and forgiveness of sins in Acts and it led to people receiving the Holy Spirit.
So you are way off in my opinion. If you want to discuss and bat this back and forth a few times – I will check back.
Hello Satan is that you with all this scriptural nonsense? Your thoughts are sufficient to lightweight flybys, but you don’t make your case whatsoever. Are you just gathering email addresses to sell? To all believers stop feeding this site and it will go away.
Bill, you are correct about “scriptural nonsense”. Thank you for confirming what the site is saying. I don’t care if anyone comments or not, the site is not going away. And no, we are not collecting email addresses.
All your ideas of Satan come from Fictional Sources, there’s nothing in the Bible on him.
Jesus was a Satanic Sorcerer, Satanic isn’t evil, it just means Adversarial, such as when he was pissing off the Jews. It’s the reason why he was crucified, Exodus 22:18.
He didn’t die for anyone’s sins, because there was never any sin to die for. The Serpent told the truth in the Garden. “No you will not die you will become like gods knowing Good and Evil.”
If they did die, we wouldn’t be here.
God is the Liar from the Beginning.
What was the Deception?
Their choices were Ignorance and Slavery or Freedom and Knowledge?
(Give me Liberty or give me Death.)
Eve chose wisely.
🏆Since we have eaten from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, we inherently know what is right and wrong, why do we need a Bible to dictate what is Moral when we are born with it?
God endorses Slavery in Exodus 21 and other Atrocities (www.evilbible.com)
We recognize Slavery as wrong because our morality is higher than God’s.
💖A Devil signifies malevolence, the Bible is chock full of malevolence, Christians Worship this Devil, therefore Christians are Devil Worshippers.
The problem is you’re heavily Indoctrinated, which is what the Church enforces on those who can’t think for themselves. Stop watching so many horror flicks, they’re affecting your ability to reason, you gullible fool (raca, raca).
Suppose we consider only the seven genuine letters of Paul. At that time the Gospels had not been written (as far as we know).
1. So, if I undergo Pauline Baptism today, my prior sins time-travel back to the time Jesus died.
2. Then Jesus died 2,000 years ago.
3. Through the death of Jesus my sins are acquitted. [Rom 6:7]
4. The acquittal of my sins time-travels to my Pauline Baptism ritual that is happening today.
5. There is a direct cause/effect sequence here – my baptism today causes my sins to be acquitted by Jesus 2,000 years ago which causes the acquittal of my sins today.
6. Because God cannot do anything that is logically impossible, even He cannot do this time-travel acquittal of my sins.
or you could get baptized everyday and stop the time travel nonsense.
I found this post because I was contemplating Isaiah 43:25, where God says he blots out our transgressions for his own sake. To me, that means we can’t earn it. Which also means, no sacrifice or offering can purchase it. Like I said, contemplating.
The belief that evolution is a hard fact is preposterous due to the number of assertions and assumptions that have to be made in order to get such an idea to even fit a plausible narrative. We can tear the books of the Bible apart and make assumptions about their contents just as it’s fairly easy to destroy the opinions expressed in this article, but where does that leave us? Whether or not “John” was the beloved disciple of Christ is a poor example to use to defame the author. Who else would have said that? This is like saying that every person talking about an incident should all have the same view and perspective … which is blatantly impossible. They will have corresponding facts, but their perspective will not be the same in all cases and some details will be omitted in one and present in others. Those who choose not to believe find it imperative that they force others to conform to their thinking causing me to wonder why they are so insecure in their belief. As for Jesus dying for our sins, there are many scriptures pointing forward to this action as well as many pointing back to it. Seeing as Paul lived in that day, knew the disciples, and was aware of what had happened and was part of the Pharisee sect trying to destroy Jesus, I believe he has more authority on the matter than someone trying to rewrite history roughly 2000 years later. Paul’s experience changed his complete outlook on the matter causing him to convert to Christianity. Why would he still want to force Christ into the Pharisaic way of thinking seeing as they were trying to kill him?
“Evolution Refutes Paul’s Reasoning”
If you believe in evolution you have bigger problems then believing Paul LOL
Jesus did die for our sins.
John the Baptist ” Behold the Lamb (sacrifice) of God that took away tu he sins of the world.(includes yours,mine,all mankinds sins) John 1:29
The One Year Bible daily reading 15min….easiest way for Christian’s to read with Holy Spirit revealing the understanding for us just like he did for Jesus. Early from the womb of the morning I seek your face…our Father who art in heaven(&earth in us)…..
Both the Bible and the Quran deny Jesus died for the sins of others.
From the Bible,
AV Dt 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
AV Ps 49:7 None [of them] can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
AV Ezk 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
From the Quran,
Say, “Shall I seek other than God as a lord, when He is the Lord of all things? No soul benefits except from its own works, and none bears the burden of another. Ultimately, you return to your Lord, then He informs you regarding all your disputes.” (6:164)
Whoever is guided, is guided for his own good, and whoever goes astray does so to his own detriment. No sinner will bear the sins of anyone else. We never punish without first sending a messenger. (17:15)
Those who disbelieved said to those who believed, “If you follow our way, we will be responsible for your sins.” Not true; they cannot bear any of their sins. They are liars.(29:12)
No soul can carry thesins of another soul. If a soul that is loaded with sins implores another to bear part of its load, no other soul can carry any part of it, even if they were related. The only people to heed your warnings are those who reverence their Lord, even when alone in their privacy, and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat). Whoever purifies his soul, does so for his own good. To God is the final destiny.(35:18)
If you disbelieve, God does not need anyone. But He dislikes to see His servants make the wrong decision. If you decide to be appreciative, He is pleased for you. No soul bears the sins of any other soul. Ultimately, to your Lord is your return, then He will inform you of everything you had done. He is fully aware of the innermost thoughts.(39:7)
No soul bears the sins of another soul.(53:38)
Ok… you and several others have pointed to biblical passages where it “appears” to suggest that “Jesus died for our sins”. I am not going to take the time to research them because the whole idea is such hokem that it doesn’t matter if it was presented more than once.
“Died for our sins”. How in the hell does that work? What does it mean? If a believer dies are all sins, regardless of their degree, absolved? The believing pious priest who raped little boys – he goes straight to heaven?.
If Jesus died for our sins, what difference should it make if I am unable to believe in the fairy tale? Wouldn’t this loving god who loves me, take pity and let me in anyway? I have been a good person; helped many down and outers – many more than you did I’ll bet; contribute more than 15% of my annual income to others. But I’m going to hell because god did not predispose me to believe fairy tales? Who’s fault is that anyway?
Matthew 26:26-28 (KJV) And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
This is only one of many… Search more you will find them.
This statement is copied into the Synoptic gospels, from Paul, who was not at the supper neither was Luke or Mark, however John was there and totally missed what was the most important event of the meal. It did not happen but was edited into the synoptic gospels from Paul. Don’t forget the RC Church has been in the business of keeping itself in business, this is merely another example.
Show me some proof….
The Flood narrative did not restart a sinless humanity through Noah.
Gen 9:22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father’s nakedness and told his two brothers who were outside… 9:24 When Noah awoke from his drunken stupor he learned what his youngest son had done to him. 9:25 So he said, “Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves he will be to his brothers.”
the authors suggestion of a supposed contradiction in John can be rebutted – Jesus did say, “I and the Father are one”. and he also answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Good luck in your search.
Like all things men do in this temporal life, they can only offer their limited understanding to events they witness, or hear about. That incomplete understanding is fraught with confusion and contradictions, even when presented by deeply sincere men. All of us as evolutionary free will creatures are are subject to the confusion and inaccuracies as we evolve on earth.
That the Fathers advanced Son was murdered as a sacrifice to appease an angry Father for the misdeeds of his ignorant but loved children is the single greatest mischaracterization of the Fathers character, ascribing a vindictive temperament to His nature, coming straight out a evolutions state of nature past.
The Urantia Book does a much more consistent and comprehensive job than the Bible in bringing to men the Character and Values of the Father and how they are demonstrated by His Son. These are the civilizing tenets brought to us evolutionary free will creatures who originate on a predatory “state of nature “planet from which we have drawn primitive inferences about the governance of the cosmos which are not representative.
all i know that is truth light and love prevents me from excepting a innocent man from taking responsibilty for my sins.i will redeem myself with love selflessness and if i do not it is only my problem to overcome because the creator of all has givin me perfect intruction on how to .
Hopefully no one will follow the heathen and pagan teachings/writings of Paul, Luke, John and the other make believe characters who supposedly wrote the New Testament. The true writers of the New Testament were the wealthy and pompous aristocrats of the Gentile Roman Piso Family that were followers of the evil one. Those Gentile Roman murdered the Jews in Jerusalem and plundered and destroyed Yahweh’s Holy Temple in 70 AD. The Gentile Romans decided to write their own bible and create their own false god. This new bible would teach the more than deceptive teachings of “faith and grace” only. The new Roman bible taught that people must merely have faith that the blood of a man/Jesus would somehow miracously forgive them of all their past, present and future sins. The detestable Romans taught that once a person put his/her faith in the blood of the man Jesus that Jesus would forever have grace on that person no matter what future sins that person committed.
In the books supposedly written by Paul, Paul would often speak out of both sides of his mouth, so to speak. Paul would write one thing and then a few verses or chapters after would write the very opposite. Such a person cannot be taken seriously. Only childish and people lacking wisdom would attempt to believe such a deceptive person. Paul very much wanted to be an important person and it is my guess that is why he often claimed to be an Apostle. But, none of the so called Twelve Apostles ever called Paul an Apostle. Luke called Paul an Apostle on two occasions but Luke was supposedly Paul’s travelling companion and was more than accustomed to hearing Paul’s boastful and false claim of being an Apostle.
There is only one true God of this World and that is Yahweh who was the Creator of this World. There are not two or three Gods as some falsely believe. The supposed Jesus claimed to be the Son of Man and the Son of God/Yahweh. We are all Sons of Man and all followers/observers of Yahweh’s Laws/Torah are Sons of God/Yahweh (Yahweh was what the Israelites/Hebrews called the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob).
The Hebrew Bible taught that those that would be considered Righteous by God/Yahweh must follow the Blessed Teachings of Moses, the Prophets and the other important Writings of the Hebrew Bible. The Hebrew Bible is The Tree of Life. The Gentile Roman fake bible is The Tree of the Knowledge of Good/truths and Evil/lies.
All those that are content to go to the grave and remain there with absolutely no hope of Resurrection into the New Covenant/Paradise/Heaven, of course, are at liberty to do so. But, I suggest that everyone slowly and cautiously read Ezekiel 34, 37; Jeremiah 30 and Hosea 3. Those chapters that three of Yahweh’s Prophets wrote make it more than clear that it is absolutely no one besides David that will be the King/Shepherd/Servant/Messiah of the coming New Covenant/Paradise/Heaven. With the Knowledge/Wisdom contained in the above chapters the supposed Jesus falls flat on his face with absolutely no hope of recovery. As I mentioned earlier the pagan Gentile Roman Emperor Constantine’s “New Testimonies” as Constantine called what is now called the New Testament was the Gentile Romans attempt to come up with a new bible and a new god. Those detestable and conjured up writings are as worthless as the paper they are written on and as worthless as the ink they were written with.
Yahweh was the same yesterday, today and forever. Yahweh does not change and anyone that says that Yahweh changes is a liar and the Truth is far from him/her.
I suggest everyone read: The Forged Origins of the New Testament. I also suggest that everyone follow the Blessed and Holy Teachings of Moses and the Prophets and totally and completely ignore Constantine’s heathen and Pagan New Testimonies/New Testament.
It is my hope that I have not overloaded anyone’s donkey, so to speak.
So from the books of moses to be forgiven of sins you would need to do sacrifices for everything you did by the lineage of aaron and the ark of the covenant… so if that is the case and Christ to some was nothing more than a man and who didn’t cover our sins then are you saying we are still sacrificing animals and burnt offerings? Because im not seeing that nor do i believe we could sustain it for the amount of sins we commit.
A Holy book conviction of a crime requires witnesses. At least 2-3. Matthew: Roman tax collector. Roman collaborator, but secretly a anti-Roman militant who followed Jesus. Mark: a friend of Jesus. Luke: a court investigator. John: a relative. 4 witnesses. Testimonies. Testifying. My Muslim friend: Did not Jesus predict the coming of Mohammed in John 16:14. ” I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them, now.But when He comes, He will guide you into all truth. He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak of himself, for whatsoever he will hear that shall he speak and he will tell you of things to come. He will glorify mine for he will take that which is mine.and will disclose it to you.” Is this not Mohammed? You can not be a good Muslim without being a good Christian, and you can not be a good Christian/Muslim without being a good Jew. All the prophets: Abraham, Moses. Jesus, and Mohammed came from God. Mohammed himself tells you that Jesus was the greatest. Many are confused. Did not Mohammed say: In the end, God will sort us out. Try to get along with the “Children of the Book”. The Jews have a book. The Christians have a book. And the Muslims have a book, but we do not get along. Too many false teachers. The Shiites fight the Sunni’s. The Catholics fight the Protestants. We do not follow the teachings. We do not study the books.
“Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors.”
Isaiah 53:12 NASB
Who is Isaiah talking about? Jesus is a long way off Isaiah is referring to something in the past.
Christians claim he is talking about Jesus. Jews claim he is talking about Israel.
However, from what I’ve found and read so far, the Rabbis before Jesus claimed he was talking about the messiah. It wasn’t until after Jesus did Rabbis begin to claim he was talking about Isreal.
“But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.”
Isaiah 53:5 NASB
Again, who is Isaiah talking about? Jesus is a long way off Isaiah is referring to something in the past. “He WAS crushed….”
The only way Jesus was able atone for our sins was because He was without sin. This took complete emptiness and humility of Himself so that He could be obedient to His Father to the point of death. Even death on a cross as a criminal.
“And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last.”
Luke 23:46 NASB
He also said “Why has thou forsaken me”? Mark 15:34, Matt 27:46.
How does the fact that Jesus was without sin (doubtful – he condones slavery, he sentences the inhabitants of those cities that do not accept his disciples, etc) atone for your sins? Please explain the process.
Psalm 22 – There is a lack of devoted study in this room and plenty of doubt in God here. I say this to encourage, not discourage, trusting more in God and studying more in that trust. Mark 11:22
Question/Challenge taken seriously …
Now, 1st Get your panties in a wad, stir up all your doubt, your anger and make sure your pride swells up real good (just like what they did in verse 28 of the chapter below) & do what you always do; put up your defenses and think of a pride-filled refute to throw Jesus words over the cliff, before you respond. #jusayin
As Jesus begins his work and His words/red letters were recorded in the temple/synagogue, as he read the scrolls:
– uppercase emphasis –
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me
to the CAPTIVES
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at
those who are OPPRESSED … Luke 4
When you said, “he condones slavery”, made me reconsider, your pride-filled title you gave yourself ‘TruthSayer’.
I now see a, TruthSlayer.
Now, I will be your Truth Slayer — The way you ‘cherry pick’ to exclusify, and justify, and rationalize, in order that it works for YOU,
and NOT for the furthering of Jesus ♥ love and disposition, showing a lost and dying world…
ALL THEY NEED IS JESUS AND HIS LOVE ~ through His documented/verifiable/justifiable death, burial, and resurrection
Reveals to all of us — who your father is.
“And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?”
Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.””
Luke 24:25-26, 44, 46-49 NASB
” and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations” still doesn’t say he died for our sins.
“Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,”
Says it right there.
Doesn’t say he died for your (not mine) sins though.
“for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.”
Matthew 26:28 NASB
“saying, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered to the chief priests and the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death and will hand Him over to the Gentiles. They will mock Him and spit on Him, and scourge Him and kill Him, and three days later He will rise again.”
For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.””
Mark 10:33-34, 45 NASB
“For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, “The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later.””
Mark 9:31 NASB
Hmm, maybe – “give his life as a ransom for many” is a long way from saying “died for the sins of all mankind”. And again I ask, how does Jesus dying have anything to do with absolving all mankind (whoops, only believers) from their sins? It’s only by fiat – God decrees it. I’m gonna kill myself?/my son? so that everyone from then on will be absolved of the sin committed by Adam and Eve? That’s the sin we’re talking about; right? Or is it your personal sin?
If it is the personal sin, am I absolved? I don’t believe in God or Jesus. What a crock.
Re Matthew 26:28 – yep, that appears to be the one sentence that says Jesus died for our sins. I stand corrected. When I get around to it, I’ll modify this section of my work. Finally someone,Matthew in this case remembers and alludes to Paul’s nonsense.
Hmm, maybe – “give his life as a ransom for many” is a long way from saying “died for the sins of all mankind”. And again I ask, how does Jesus dying have anything to do with absolving all mankind (whoops, only believers) from their sins? It’s only by fiat – God decrees it. I’m gonna kill myself?/my son? so that everyone from then on will be absolved of the sin committed by Adam and Eve? That’s the sin we’re talking about; right? Or is it your personal sin?
If it is the personal sin, am I absolved? I don’t believe in God or Jesus. What a crock.
Re Matthew 26:28 – yep, that appears to be the one sentence that says Jesus died for our sins. I stand corrected. When I get around to it, I’ll modify this section of my work. Finally someone,Matthew in this case remembers and alludes to Paul’s nonsense.
Matthew 26:28 is about the last supper, the blood he is refering to was wine they all drank, at that moment.
Look carefully at the context. Jesus was telling his disciples that the greatest leaders were those who served their brothers. By dedicating His life (Ransom) to the service of His brothers (totally) Jesus was their Fathers authorized leader. Nothing about being a sacrificial lamb.
“While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.””
Matthew 26:26-29 NASB
“”You know that after two days the Passover is coming, and the Son of Man is to be handed over for crucifixion.””
Matthew 26:2 NASB
“However, I am telling you nothing but the truth when I say it is profitable (good, expedient, advantageous) for you that I go away. Because if I do not go away, the Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Advocate, Intercessor, Strengthener, Standby) will not come to you [into close fellowship with you]; but if I go away, I will send Him to you [to be in close fellowship with you]. And when He comes, He will convict and convince the world and bring demonstration to it about sin and about righteousness (uprightness of heart and right standing with God) and about judgment: About sin, because they do not believe in Me [trust in, rely on, and adhere to Me]; About righteousness (uprightness of heart and right standing with God), because I go to My Father, and you will see Me no longer; About judgment, because the ruler (evil genius, prince) of this world [Satan] is judged and condemned and sentence already is passed upon him. I have still many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them or to take them upon you or to grasp them now. But when He, the Spirit of Truth (the Truth-giving Spirit) comes, He will guide you into all the Truth (the whole, full Truth). For He will not speak His own message [on His own authority]; but He will tell whatever He hears [from the Father; He will give the message that has been given to Him], and He will announce and declare to you the things that are to come [that will happen in the future]. He will honor and glorify Me, because He will take of (receive, draw upon) what is Mine and will reveal (declare, disclose, transmit) it to you. Everything that the Father has is Mine. That is what I meant when I said that He [the Spirit] will take the things that are Mine and will reveal (declare, disclose, transmit) it to you. In a little while you will no longer see Me, and again after a short while you will see Me.”
John 16:7-16 AMPC
“Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.””
Luke 24:45-49 NASB
JESUS IS GOD. DUE. 4:39, JOHN 1:1, ROM 5, JOHN 19. THOMAS SAID SHOW US THE FATHER AND WE WILL BELIEVE. …JESUS SAID, I HAVE BEEN WITH YOU SO LONG AND YOU STILL DONT BELIEVE…AND THOMAS SAID….MY LORD AND MY GOD. REPENT SO I CAN SEE YOU IN HEAVEN OR KEEP PRIDE AND PERISH
None of those versus you cite say anything about Jesus dying for our sins … which is the subject of this essay. Paul is the only one who claims Jesus died for your sins. And he comes to that conclusion through the most convoluted reasoning ever concocted. Re read this chapter to review his cockamany.
Jeremiah…Why would Jesus say this?…John 5:28-34….28 “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have DONE GOOD, UNTO THE RESURRECTION OF LIFE; AND THOSE THAT HAVE DONE EVIL, UNTO THE RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION. 30 I CAN OF MINE OWN SELF DO NOTHING: I as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. 31 IF I BEAR WITNESS OF MYSELF, MY WITNESS IS NOT TRUE. 32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. 33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. 34 BUT I RECEIVE NOT TESTIMONY FROM MAN: BUT THESE THINGS I SAY, THAT YE MIGHT BE SAVED.”…This is talking about doing the works of the FATHER in-order to be saved….Ephesians 2: 8-10… 8 “For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves [i.e., Why?…Your EGO will not get you anywhere with God]: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast [i.e., This is ego boasting works that WILL NOT get you saved].10 For we are his workmanship [i.e., Godly works taught by Christ that leads one to salvation], created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them [i.e., “Them” is Godly works taught by Jesus].”….What is the first thing that Jesus said to do!?!?…Matthew 6:33 “But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness [i.e., Godly works]; and all these things shall be added unto you.”…Where is the kingdom of God found!?!>….Luke 17:21 “Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU.”…God works WITHIN each person because you are special to HIM!….Acts 7:48-51 “Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? 50 Hath not my hand made all these things? 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.”….God does NOT dwelleth in so religious Temples….So what TEMPLE does God Dwelleth in?…GOD Dwelleth in the Temple of your own mind that’s found WITHIN YOU!!….What did Jesus say to the Religious?….Luke 11:52“Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: YE ENTER NOT IN YOURSELVES, AND THEM THAT WERE ENTERING IN YE HINDERED.”
Too much to read, unpack. I’ll just take one phrase in the middle at random.
“For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves ” Grace and Faith” nothing about Jesus dying for your sins. You get saved through Grace and Faith.
There are some Eye witness evidences in apocrypha books of the bible that Jesus was not crucified ie., Gospel of Barnabas, Gospel of Judas & Apocalypse of Peter and Dead sea scrolls and Second Treatise of the Great Seth.
Romans 3:23. I can see that you are a “rich young ruler”. Mark 10:17-27. Adil Ahamed. Are you a Muslim? John 16:12 predicts Mohammed’s coming.. Just as God gave Moses as law giver to the Jews, God was required to give a law giver to the Muslims. It has to do with the inheritance laws set up by God. Ismael was Abraham’s first son, and Abraham had 5 more sons after Sarah died. These are the sons of Persia.. Unfortunately, the Jews rejected Jesus, and likewise with the Muslims. Jews accept Jesus as a person, but not as a Messiah. I like the word Messiah. The messenger by whom we are measured. I would suggest reading the first four testimonies. Matthew, Mark. Luke. John. 4 witnesses as required for proof in court. 2-3 required by God’s law, again. These books are neat. Matthew was a double agent revolutionist Jew acting as double agent Roman collaborator. Mark was just Jesus’s buddy. Mark liked hanging with Jesus, and eating sandwiches. John, and Jesus had a bromance going on. Luke was actually a court investigator. (Read first, and last verses to confirm this.) You should find the evidence, you seek. .
I have read and re-read the Gospels. No where does it say that Jesus died for our sins.
You make excellent points, TruthSayer. Many Christians I know will find a way to argue with this kind of evidence. It’s a threat, obviously. They fail to see that if they change or reconsider what they believe based on rationale, that it may mean they have to stop believing in their God or Jesus. Atheism isn’t a disease they catch.
Personally, I like to consider the human and practical approach. First, these “people” who wrote the bible are specifically men. I don’t see nor act in life that same way. I look at human behavior and tendencies, since people haven’t evolved much – and men will act like men. They think and act differently than females. That’s a fact, not a bias. Males and females are not the same gender in every way. Furthermore, women were treated as second class, uneducated citizens, so women didn’t get much to say in how the Abrahamic religions were written and enacted; hence, males, not people. I refuse to take guilt in ways I am not guilty, nor do I see this thinking in the many wise women I know who have taught and supported each other to be better women. I do see some decent males who have done the same, and proud of them for thinking rationally and caring to do this.
Secondly, and more importantly, this whole idea of sacrifice and offerings to any gods is as old as humans. Even today you can find it in some religions (Santeria comes to mind). The idea of sin and repentance is a personal moral responsibility regardless of what the old Jews or ancient peoples thought of sacrifice for the washing away of sins. (i.e. forgiveness). What a convoluted cop out to think a goat, lamb, chicken, bull or person can be the scapegoat and sacrifice to amend another’s bad behavior. What a strange and volatile method to believe a man can be the sacrifice for others’ irresponsible, ignorant words and deeds. I call that murder, not a mystical act of love. Mystery of the cross solved. Did the Romans crucify anyone for another’s sins? Apparently, according to Paul, they did, hence Jesus. Assuming Paul’s position is correct, that Jesus died for our sins, then by all means sins would cease, or stop hurting anyone, or people would magically change if they only looked to Jesus. Reality doesn’t agree with that. Or, to believe (without any evidence) any god will or can forgive us because “Jesus” (sacrifice), is wholly backwards justification to get out of having a conscience and enacting personal accountability, integrity and responsible work. Let’s NOT blame Adam. Let’s look in the mirror. Does anyone need a god for this inborn characteristic of enacting integrity? In fact, if your conscience is intact, one SHOULD feel burdened by bad thinking and behavior which can motivate one towards change. But usually they ignore their conscience and allow others to reap the bad results of their bad behavior. Hence, goats and Jesus so they get off easy. Forgiveness via Jesus: you don’t get something for nothing, unless you’re an infant. God forgiving you because you say “I’m sorry” or because of a sacrifice doesn’t change a thing, it merely makes it easier to not be fully responsible for yourself. Getting forgiveness BEFORE real change and repentance to the hurt persons is the most backwards logic in human nature ever spouted and sold, by irresponsible people who want the easy way out. Here’s how it really goes down: First, you see what you did wrong (conscience bothers you or you see your life falling apart), then you make the changes (actions), then you apologize to those you hurt (confession and reparation), then you continue with a new way (changing bad thinking and behavior). You don’t need anything but sanity and a working mind with some insight to notice this. So are the ancients and modern humans all saying they don’t see this? If not, I suspect because they want the easy way out of personal responsibility, as usual. Many bad and horrible crimes and hurts are justified in the name of irresponsibility. History: wash, rinse, repeat. Integrity, probably the most important idea for humanity, seems to be an elusive concept. Belief without practical evidence is employed instead and keeps people stuck in bad ideas over the idea of integrity. People have only learned more complex justifications and excuses through time.
The idea of sacrifice is only real when one person gives up their time and energy to “teach a man to fish” for the other’s benefit without any attachment to personal pay back; to make the other an independent and wise thinker – to think before they act to avoid being a victim of false ideas. In the larger perspective this type of sacrifice helps all of humanity when many people see the sanity of it and practice it. (Mothers do this all the time). Isn’t that what the story of Jesus was about?
To add icing on the cake, it’s all based on a really badly told story in Genesis. Since when does anything in nature come from or birthed by the male portion of the species in mammals? Somehow God goes against his own creation by creating man first then taking out a rib to make a woman, and solely for man’s benefit – sex or babies. Everything after that can’t be believed, even allegorically. Two versions of Genesis, and the different version told to Muhammad show evidence of that story being questionable. Obviously told by some male to strut his all-important self and control over everything and everyone else in nature (because he has the arrogance, manipulations and muscle to enforce it, too). The military minds brainwash young vulnerable men all the time to support these methods, after breaking down their natural tendencies, then forced following.
I’m analyze, critically, Paul’s character and flawed thinking based on his own words (and that’s how you spot a liar – inconsistency of character and their own words). Since when do we trust a mass murder to have “changed” just because he claims to have seen a light? Do you think it’s any bit of a difficult stretch to lie after murdering? Change takes a lot of time, and I doubt with all the guilt and real change he would be boasting his position so loudly and widely, whilst arguing with the real Apostles. How easy to just preach to the ignorant gentiles of his Jewish teachings, who couldn’t always argue back on the same terms. Being clever doesn’t make truth. It means you’re a master of words and ideas so you also know how to twist them to whatever is suitable at the moment.
I think Paul felt some guilt for being a mass murderer while he wasn’t able to stop this movement of Christianity he hated for whatever reason, while changing that movement using his own rhetoric. He justified it all, later, through reclaiming his old Jewish idea of blood sacrifice, hence Jesus as the grand finale of sacrifice. What a bad idea, since he probably knew better about the workings of humans and the idea of real change and personal responsibility vs sacrifice, or not. Either way, it’s always been a bad idea, be it ancient peoples or ancient religions, including Judaism. And to project that bad idea onto the Intelligent Creator, rather than personal accountability, is laughable. What’s worse is that Christians accept this as part of the Old Testament without question, as if God was a moronic child. Furthermore, Paul never met Jesus, nor fully believed what any Christians of the day believed (or he wouldn’t have killed them), then changed the story of Jesus’ intentions/gospels by leaning on good ol’ sacrifice. You have to have your head in the sand to believe sacrifice, regardless of the justifications by another being for someone else’s sins, as a simple stupid inhumane idea; always will be. Was Paul that dumb? I suspect not. He was educated and hooked up with the right people. He appeared to employ the politician’s stance. He appeased his guilt with the sacrifice story then changed the Christianity he hated of the day by being the biggest mouth in town, regardless of how “nice” he sounded, which many will argue that his writings were proof of his changes. Think carefully because he contradicted the gospel stories. He was a legalistic Jew, the very kind Jesus and his Apostles were correcting and arguing against. As with politicians, if you talk long enough, something will stick with an ignorant audience. If you talk long enough, eventually you can convince yourself via agreement of the masses of what you want to be true. It’s a fallacious idea (i.e. a lie people tell themselves or others) that if everyone agrees, then it must be true. This is the workings of propaganda (lies by a liar). You get more bees with honey, by “sounding” good and nice. Any politician knows this. He was a controlling man with a personal and larger agenda, eventually assisted by the Roman empire and church. Don’t mistake controlling as always appearing mean or nasty. Sweet lies are a form of control, and a proclamation that those who buy the lies are too stupid to eventually figure out the truth with a few good questions, as is right to do. As this blog shows.
Anyway, back to sacrifice and forgiveness, didn’t Jesus say, “Whatsoever you do to the least of your brothers, you do to me”? No one owes God an apology, which always precedes forgiveness, but Paul owed it to the persons he hurt and wronged. Oops. They are dead because he killed them. Guess he had to live with that guilt which no apology nor sacrifice could soothe away those horrendous bad deeds of his past. He needed to change himself using integrity – a daily and lifetime of work. Personal guilt is the price one pays for not thinking before acting and screwing up badly. Paul is/was not to be trusted, in my opinion. He merely serves as a point in history and evidence that people haven’t changed much in the aggregate.
Post Script: If anyone has angry or fallacious comments, not only do I not care, but that publicly proves that stupidity is borne of poor judgement and anger at others over intelligent insight and articulated argument. If you can intelligently show me my flawed thinking/argument, go for it.
WOW – quite a treatise. Thank you.
The Bible was written by people. And although is contains many books that are inspired, truly written from a perspective of higher consciousness, it is not perfect. It is flawed. The psalms are transcendent…the gospels inspiring, but as Truthsayer says, there are problems with the Bible. Two examples he gives are John’s Gospel (written by committee 90 A.D.) and with Paul (pharisetical perspective). Scholarly discernment requires one to determine the source and context, before coming to an interpretation that has any merit at all, otherwise you end up with bad theology…literal fundamentalist interpretation being an example of the most immature and dangerous of theologies. One basic reason fundamentalism is dangerous is because it creates a Christianity that’s no more than an exclusive club, with everyone going to hell who isn’t a believer. What about the billions of people who were born before Christ, or the billions of people who practice a beautiful theology of their own…Bhuddists, Jews, Islamists, Indigenous cultures, philanthropic atheists? Christ was inclusive, he invited everyone to the banquet and hung out with low-lifes because they wanted to change…unlike the hypocrites in power. He was a cultural revolutionist who exposed the injustices of those in control, and was executed for it! His agenda was to create a level playing field that included EVERYONE! Where no one was better than anyone else, and to operate and live under the golden rule. As Christ said…”God’s sun shines on bad people and on good people. He sends rain on those who are right with Him and on those who are not right with Him.”…Christ also said, “Those who are not against us are for us.” If Christ was alive today he would embrace anyone and everyone who is trying to live a life of higher consciousness, for that was his message…Wake Up to reality. When Christ talks of repentance (which means turn in a different direction), he was telling people to do a 180…to turn from our self-centered egoic practices, and realize that we are not the centre of the universe…that we need community. And getting back to the execution of Christ, the atonement theories have to be bad theology! Ricard Rohr has written a lot on the subject. Here’s an intro to his understanding. https://cac.org/love-not-atonement-2017-05-04/ It’s worth checking out, but it will likely challenge the theology that has been fed to you through your church. I believe in Christ’s resurrection, and understanding the Paschal Mystery is just that…mystery. But I’ve certainly moved beyond the notion of a God who had to sacrifice His Son in such a horrific manner in order that I might be saved.
YOU ARE APSOLUTY deceived and therefore deceive others and you must have a very evil heart because anybody anybody tha an r3ad can easily see when reading the bible that are dozens of verses that state the son/ Messiah would die for our sins. GOD EVEN SAYS “I WILL COME DOWN and save them” because JESUS IS GOD. THE LORD REBUKE YOU
“Come down and save them” does not say Jesus died for your sins.
I don’t believe that Jesus was God, and people rationalize he is through deciphering the word in an almost cryptic way. There are way more, very direct statements that say he is not, like I can’t do anything without God, I do so things through God, no one is good except God (words Jesus said), when asked what comndments are the greatest Jesus said love your neighbor and there is only one God and so on and so on.
If you do not believe in the possibility of a Loving Creator God, then nothing about Christ will make sense to you and there is not reason to read any further. But if you do think that there is at least a small chance that there is a caring God, then I hope I can help you understand God’s plan of eternal life for mankind.
The Scripture tells us that God is love. Let’s start there. As every person who has ever been loved knows, love naturally expands, it reaches out, it presses to be shared. Love cannot be contained, it must expand. So it was with God, he could not contain his love. Yet, love can only truly exist in an environment where it may be freely received and freely given. So, God designed a creature capable of receiving or rejecting love. He also created a place for that being to live. He created a planet of beauty, a place that would provide for the physical needs and even for the curiosity and creativity of this creature. The stars and planets, earth and people were created! God saw this as good. This first man, who was called Adam, was made from the dust of the earth! And God and Man walked together. God loved his creation.
From the very beginning, God had decided to give man a choice to walk in the love of God, or to go his own way. Those who would return God’s love, would be given eternal life, those who would walk away from God, would not. Therefore, a choice needed to be given. God provided the very simplest, clearest choice possible – “Obey your creator, the one who loves you with all of his heart and you will inherit an eternal life of love and peace and joy. Disobey and death will overtake you.” If the story ended there it would indeed seem cruel and demanding but, it does not end there.
God understood his creation, having been given freedom to choose, would not always make the decision to follow after love, but would go astray and seek to follow its own desires at times, even if the decisions were self-destructive. We see this clearly in the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis. They disobeyed God, attempted to cover their disobedience, and then hid from God.What we see next is an incredible revelation of God’s love for man. Rather than washing his hands of mankind and physically killing him, He provided a substitute who would pay that penalty of death for the disobedience of the man.
God took an innocent animal (probably a lamb, as we will see in a moment), and killed it. He used the skin of the dead animal to cover the sin of Adam. From that day,the only way that the man could fellowship with the Creator God, was through that innocent substitute. The death of the animal, in the place of the man, allowed the relationship between man and God to continue.
Of course, there is no way that the blood of an animal could really pay the full price of death which God required for disobedience. But this animal’s death was just a temporary covering, till a permanent payment could be made. All through the Old Testament we see sacrifices of animals to pay the price of sin. The death of the animals temporarily paid the penalty for the rejection of God’s love. It turns out that the Old Testament proved that man cannot live a perfect life. Even the Jews, who were made a special people to God, proved that mankind in the best of circumstances, were still in constant need of someone to pay the death-price for them. All of these sacrifices, which were just animals, represented One who would come to the earth to permanently pay the price for rejecting the love of God. When Jesus came on the scene he was called by John, “The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world”.
Christ became the permanent sacrifice for sin. It was he that clearly revealed fullness of the love of God. Through him, eternal life is made available to man. Those who will believe that he paid the price for our sins will have restored to them the promise of a life of eternal love and joy and peace. Those who reject the need for someone to pay for their death-price will be tossed aside in the final day, receiving the 2nd death – the death of the soul.
The promise of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 3:18. Pretty clear, but it is a basic theme in the Bible. Lamb of God. Son of Man. Old testament. New Testament. Saying, you can’t find a verse supporting this concept, is like saying you can’t find ice cream in a Dairy Queen. It starts in Genesis with sin in the garden, when God is talking to Eve. Gen 3:15. “Enmity between you and the woman ….. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heal.” Jesus defeated Satan, but got nailed to cross (through his heals”. Okay, a little cryptic, but you are 3 pages into the Book. The Bible is pretty cool like this, basic central themes.
I agree. Faith is lacking. It’s all based on faith initially. .Marlon
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 11:54 AM The Church Of Truth™ wrote:
> Henry commented: “If you do not believe in the possibility of a Loving > Creator God, then nothing about Christ will make sense to you and there is > not reason to read any further. But if you do think that there is at least > a small chance that there is a caring God, then I ho” >
1 Peter 3:18. The concept starts in Gen. 3:15. Pretty center theme. It’s like saying, you can’t find a hamburger at Sonic. Faith based. If you don’t have faith based on evidence seen, then ….. Rejection of the savior is ugly. It is better to have never known the truth, than to reject the truth. Judaism, and Mohammed ism. Don’t bring a curse on yourself.
Henry, where do you get the “Substitute” theory from the story of Adams disobedience? There is nothing which indicates a “Substitution” death of an animal (Lamb) for Adams sin. By the way, the “Substitution” death of an animal was for “Unintentional” sin – not for what Adam and his wife did. And the death of that sacrifice was not to “pay for sins” nor to take them away, but to “cover over” them, and then the Gods would “Forgive” them (Book of Leviticus). This “Death-price” is a New testament idea also without support from the O.T.
And as far as Jesus being the “Lamb of God” taking away the sins of the world… Jesus never identified himself as being a “Lamb” – sacrificial or Passover. He was the Shepherd of the sheep, not the “Lamb of God”. Do you realize that the Lamb in the book of Revelation is never identified as being Jesus? The Greek word used by John to say that Jesus is the Lamb of God is only found in [Jn 1:29, 36] and is not the same word used in the book of Revelation.
There is nothing from the mouth of Jesus which implies that He was a Lamb, nor that He would die for the sins of mankind… His blood was for the ratifying of the new Covenant of the Gods – not for the forgiveness of sin.
Run the word propitiation in the Bible (3 instances in reference to what Jesus did for us). Then look at Isaiah 53:8. Then run the word “gospel.” You will not only find that the gospel saves us, but the gospel is defined in 1Cor15 as the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. I could take you all over the Bible, but apparently your heart has been hardened and you are blinded to the truth. Paul warns of this and false teachings. I typed this for the sake of those who you are misleading.
So, the historian Flavius Josephus documents Jesus Crucifixion, and resurrection. “Jewish Antiquities” is a nice historic 20 volume book..We accept Josephus for a lot of history, so, so Jesus lived, died, and was resurrected. The Romans thought it was pretty cool. They had never crucified someone, and had them come back. The Romans felt Jesus had learned his lesson, and didn’t seem to be causing any more problems, but they kept an eye on him. The holiday rush was over.
Evolution is crap, because I have never seen a lizard driving a car. Lizards have supposedly been around longer than humans, but they never learned to drive. Lizards had the same opportunities for mutation, and evolution, but only one species ever learned to use WiFi. That makes humans sorta special, like maybe created in God’s image, or something. Where’s the bird that can do Algebra?
Then, the whole Bible accuracy thing. After WW2, the Italian Catholics felt really bad about turning over Jews to the Nazi’s, so for a “little world wide good will”, they let some dudes have access to Iranian texts (that the Catholics had “taken” during the pillaging and plundering crusade thing”. These were first century Aramaic Bible text written by Jerusalem Christians after the disbursement. Man, the Christian were sweating. What, if Christians it wrong, and Jesus was a woman who sold hot dogs, or something. So the dudes took 15 years to translate, and the “New Jerusalem Bible” from the original text reads like the King James version. Actually, a little disappointing.
The Roman Catholics decided the Bible shouldn’t be written by King James, who rebelled against the Roman church, so they decided to translate these Bible texts, and they took another 13 years, and released the “New Catholic Bible”.Seemed, the Catholics were hoping the bible would turn out a little less “Protestant”. Didn’t work, because the new Bible book still read the same. Sorry, guys.
Now, my personal opinion is the Bible isn’t God’s best work. I prefer bunnies, and squirrels. God is a better creative artist than an author, but then again, God did use a lot of Ghost writers in the Bible.
So, get off your computer, and go study a bunny. No way, evolution could ever create such a ridiculous animal. Everything is wrong with a bunny, but the thing still works. While, you are out there, catch a sunset, and remember that you were created to enjoy a great sunset, or a flower that you can’t eat. (That doesn’t exactly fit in, when survival of the fittest thing. If you were lingering watching a great sunset, then a T-Rex might eat you, or something)
God is like a big, powerful train, and sometimes, you have to stand by the track, and wait. I don’t recommend standing on the track, and denying trains exist, just, because you don’t always see a train coming..
As far as Jesus, well.you have 4 testimonies about his life. Matthew was a anti-Roman militant double agent Roman tax collector. Mark was Jesus friend who like to eat sandwiches with Jesus, and hang out. John had a big bro-mance with Jesus that seems a little heavy at times. Luke was a court appointed investigator who can’t figure out the time frame. Still, 4 dudes with 4 different back grounds, and a pretty good testimony.
Jesus teaching’s are pretty cool. Mellow. Love your neighbor as yourself. Or “Don’t be a selfish A-hole your whole life”. If you were going to model your life after someone as an example, Jesus is a pretty cool dude. Jesus has a good message. Basically ,everyone can become a “Son of God” like Jesus. Sorta, like clearing the triples on a motocross track. Nobody thinks it can be done, until somebody does it. Then everybody clears the jumps. Believe he did it, and then believe you can do it.
Sorta cool, but maybe it was easy for Jesus, being God’s son, but the Crucifixion still had to be rough.
Take Paul for what he was. Paul struggled a lot with his Christianity. Paul was jealous, but he eventually came around. His first book were “All about me”, and Paul had trouble getting along with folks, but he grew as a Christian. In Romans, Paul is a braggart jerk. Galatians, not much better. In Corinthians, Paul is writing to a bunch of people that ran whore houses. In Ephesians, everybody is worried about getting their pencil sharpened. Pretty crazy stuff. .
. . .
Bob, The word Propitiation was never used nor implied by Jesus. When you “Run the word Gospel” you do not find that Jesus “Saves us” (That is Paul’s idea and defined as such in one verse in all of the N.T.), but that the Kingdom of the heavens has arrived! Both John the baptizer and Jesus proclaimed the same “Gospel” messages – Repent for the Kingdom is at hand, and Repent for the Forgiveness of sin!
Sometimes a lair will make false accusations to make the truth appear false – as it seems Paul does in his warnings of “False teachers”. Jesus never said the “Gospel” was His coming death, burial and resurrection… only Paul did…
Isaisah 53:10 “Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.” JESUS HAD NO OFFSPRING, HE DID NOT HAVE A LONG LIFE. You could take is so over he bible… except 2 verses past the one you posted. The messianic prophecy talked about in Isaiah is not Jesus, it is if you cherry pick, but taken as a whole, it can not be.
I came across this website by accident and that is ‘the truth’ as I have it in front of me at this moment. There is always the possibility that the webpage may have been altered from it’s original form by hackers, the author or a third party but I have to assume that it has not. So my ‘truth’ is right in front of me. If I was shown this website and discovered that it had been copied by hand, sometimes retold as a story or passed on by someone who knew someone who had read the original and by hundreds or thousands of people over a period of dozens or hundreds or years is what I would read still ‘the truth’? I very very much doubt it. What I would be reading would probably be nothing like the original at all, bits would have been rewritten to say something completely different or make a different point, some parts would be left out, the author’s name may have been changed, it may not even be about biblical matters at all but be a guide to carp fishing on the Moon. If you have ever played Chinese Whispers (is it called Telephone in the USA?) you will know that a short story that has been retold by a group of people ends up completely different by the end of the retelling, bits have been added, altered, removed because that is what we humans do, we make mistakes and we fill in bits that we think we hear or we want to make mischief. If any of the people reading this believes ‘the Bible’ is the work of a fantastic God you should do some proper homework and learn what ‘truth’ is. This ‘Bible to which you refer is what is known as a codex, it is a collection of manuscripts and bits of manuscripts written by different people from different places over a period of many years and what is written in those manuscripts has been passed down, retold, and altered as so many documents were from that time as the original players in the stories were totally illiterate. Much of what is collated in that codex is incomplete, and many many other writings didn’t make it into the finished codex at all because for some reason the people who put ‘the Bible’ together didn’t want them in, most likely because they contradict the books it does contain, which they do. Complete, accurate and the truth it certainly is not. It is a bit like going into a library and ripping pages out of books at random and then sitting down and selectively taking those pages to make a new book (a codex) and then declaring to the world that you have just discovered a hidden gem written by some ancient priests. It’s not true. The fact is that if you look carefully at ‘the Bible’ and do some good research instead of just accepting it is all true because somebody told somebody else it was true etc you will find thousands of contradictions throughout it, dates clash, people clash, events clash, it has Chinese Whispers jumping off the pages. The Bible is not ‘the truth’ and it certainly is not ‘the Word of God’, it was written by superstitious ignorant people who believed, like children do, that when the lights go out there is a beast under the bed. Go to the trouble of looking through the various versions of the Bible and you’ll see. Hold on, ‘versions’.. isn’t the Bible the unedited Word of God? No it is NOT, nor are any of the other historically ridiculous ‘Bibles’ from other religions. They are fantasy, certainly they make some interesting points but that’s it. The Old Testament takes some beating for sheer evil of wars and murder and vengeance and if that’s a book of Peace count me out. You’ve been fed a lie and you’ve swallowed it. There was no proof that this man ‘Jesus’ was ever crucified, the Romans didn’t crucify people then if you take the trouble to look at the facts, look it up in proper history books not those from Christian bookshops that just roll out more of this purile rubbish. There was no resurrection, in the original codex it ends that Jesus died and that was that so presumably some bored monk who copied it out hundreds of years later thought he’d add a bit on that Jesus had come back to life. It never happened. So before you start throwing brickbats at the author of this site I say ‘verily ye shall hence go forth and thou shalt take thineself to a proper university and from there to thine libraries and lo shall ye seek out the real truth and stop falling for the Biggest Lie mankind has ever fallen for’. It wasn’t people who didn’t believe in religion (you call them atheists, agnostics whatever), who set about murdering and burning it was religious zealots, the Mansons of this world, the organised church, the witch hunters, the crusaders, the very people you all follow blindly who claim they speak for this magical God. Learn about ‘the Bible’ before you start quoting ‘the truth’ because it’s not what you think it is. You are being blinded by the Fox Mulder ‘I WANT to believe ethic but although that series is science fiction it has more chance of having some grain of truth in it than a codex retelling stories from ancient Egyptian beliefs from thousands of years before. Get educated then come back and when you know exactly what this ‘truth’ is that you spout with divine wisdom let us all know, you’ll be the only one ever to know what you’re talking about. The rest is just a book of words written, retold and edited by men or women to suit their purpose which is to control you all to get money out of you to build their churches, palaces and abbeys. As a bishop once told me, ‘People will believe whatever I tell them because without that the Church could not exist and I would not live in a beautiful house like this, I’d have to get a real job’ He later went on to abuse countless children, no doubt in ‘the name of God’. Didn’t it say a rich man shall not enter heaven somewhere… I’ve got no time for any of the whining proles who suck up to men in dresses wearing silly hats and waving batons in the air claiming they are representatives of a higher power. There is no eternal life. Live the one life you have and enjoy it and stop being controlled by others. Use your brain and stop chanting this stuff as ‘the truth’ It isn’t. It never was.
The knowledge of this world is foolishness to God, including who ever wrote this article!
Justin… I bet you are one which believes the KJV is the only “True” bible translation… I found there is more Paul in our churches today than there is Jesus!
If you could read Jesus’ words without the influence of the rest of the N.T., you would come away with a whole new perspective of the “Son of God”…
Foolishness is taking the word of others instead of “Searching the scriptures” (Old Testament) like Jesus said, and reading what the words say, not what they might secretly imply…
It is wonderful to see and read the truth that you are educating everyone with. Please add this to your great collection:
“not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.” – John 5:18.
This narration was made by the author for the books of john.
Breaking the Sabbath law is the 4th Law of the 10 commandments. Break that law, and confess in court that you’ve broken that law, and you can find yourself in prison to serve the penalty for breaking the Sabbath Law: the Death Penalty. So not only did he die for his own sins, but the sin he committed is so serious that it is punishable by death.
For no man can die for the sins of others:
“Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.” – Dueteronomy 24:16
If anyone tries to disregard the Sabbath Law, you can direct them to Number 15:32 which demonstrates that even their god will order the death of a man simply gathering sticks on Saturdays (Sabbath, Sabado). Keep up the great work!
Excellent Free Thinker!
I have all the information you need please call me at 6024992142
Give me a hint… I don’t want to make a phone call to someone I don’t know and I don’t want to listen to a harangue.
You dont understand anything you’re saying. Read this: https://brianzahnd.com/2014/04/dying-sins-work/
I agree that I don’t understand anything I’m saying. None of what you believe makes any sense to me. I did read the link you referenced. Here is a quote from that piece:
“Let me suggest that when we say Jesus died for our sins, we mean something like this: We violently sinned our sins into Jesus, and Jesus revealed the heart of God by forgiving us.”.
“We violently sinned our sins into Jesus”??? Oh, now THAT makes sense. I renounce everything I said.
BTW… isn’t Jesus, God? I don’t understand that either. Perhaps you can give me another link..
Oh wait…. I just reread the article and discoved this gem:
“At the cross we violently sinned our sins into Jesus, and Jesus absorbed them, died because of them, carried them into death, and rose on the third day to speak the first world of the new world: “Peace be with you.”
The author sure loves the phrase “violently sinned our sins into Jesus”. Now what the heck does that mean? That’s supposed to clear up the “Jesus died for our sins” nonsense? It doesn’t. Your author doesn’t know what he is talking about either.
Your reference is just more babble trying to explain the inexplicable.
This article is very interesting and brings up many valid points. I do enjoy reading the Bible, and also have many questions about it, and as you do, believe that Jesus and his messages are misinterpreted . None of this shakes my faith or belief in God My faith and “proof of God,” if you will, came through a personal, supernatural experience at the age of 16 that could not be explained by natural means. I had another about 15 to 18 years ago. There’s no real need to elaborate here. Suffice it to say, my faith did not come from a book or from a sermon, it came from personal experience.
What I do take exception to and don’t quite understand the source of, is your hostility in stating your opinions, name calling, and disrespect of posters with an opinion different than yours. Although I may not necessarily agree with all of your opinions or perspectives, I welcome the different perspectives you provide, and the questions and initiative to learn that they provoke in me. It is my personal opinion that God is not afraid of our curiosity either and may even welcome it, as he’s the one who gave us the brain to begin with. If he”s true, as I believe he is, he can stand up to any scrutiny.
At the end of the day, all the analysis, study, and debates don’t answer the basic questions of the origin of the universe, our purpose for being here, and our destiny after our earthly life ends.
So, let’s discuss these things in a mature, intelligent, and respectful fashion.
Well, you make a good point. I don’t react so vehemently to people who write without an attitude as you did, do I? I hope not.
Paul is NOT the only one! Peter, John and Luke ALL penned words, inspired by the Holy Spirit, that Jesus died in order to pay a substitutiary death for the sins of humanity. So did the author of Hebrews. In fact, the one passage you credit as being the “sole” biblical evidence was, in fact, Luke quoting Paul, which makes the passage itself a corroborating testimony. And, “what Scrpitures,” you ask? Try Isaiah and Psalms for starters.
Hey, thanks for the info. Can you give me the exact verses that you say repeat the claim that Jesus died in order to pay a substitutiary death for the sins of humanity? I will make appropriate changes to my claim if you can show me the exact phrases. Also, how do you come to the conclusion that my selected phrase was Luke quoting Paul?
By the way, much of the support for my claim found under the section “How Paul Came To The Conclusion Jesus Died For Our Sins” is learned and shamelessly copied from Bart Ehrman. He is an American New Testament scholar focusing on textual criticism of the New Testament, the historical Jesus, and the development of early Christianity. He has written and edited 30 books, including three college textbooks. He has also authored six New York Times bestsellers. He is currently the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. “Misquoting Jesus” is my favorite of his books.
I th;ink I’lm on pretty solid ground. I’ll stand by my claim until you show me evidence otherwise.
TruthSayer, I knew reading this article that you had to have studied Bart Ehrman’s work. You are definitely on solid ground, and the information you provided is 100% accurate.
Elizabeth Verde, Barrabbas’ first name was Jesus. Barrabbas is Aramaic for “son of the father” (the language which Jesus spoke). Matthew 27:15-17 NRSV – Now at the festival the governor was accustomed to release a prisoner for the crowd, anyone whom they wanted. At that time they had a notorious prisoner, called Jesus[a] Barabbas. So after they had gathered, Pilate said to them, “Whom do you want me to release for you, Jesus Barabbas or Jesus who is called the Messiah?”
Elizabeth, Jesus seems to be the only one who didn’t speak of His death being a “…substitutiary death for the sins of humanity”. The only thing I can think of that might imply this is from the book of John where Jesus speaks of His laying down His life for His sheep [Jn 10:11, 15, 17, 18], but He did not say His death would be a substitute death for our sins. His “Gospel was not defined as Him dying for the sins of mankind, but that the Kingdom of God had come!
It seems rather clear that the reason that it was Paul who made Jesus a figure of history–the main reason we have knowledge about him. What made Paul successful in his “missionizing” is that it had elements borrowed from the paganism of the time. Although this article does not address this point, I wonder if the “died for our sins” concept also had pagan antecedents.
The only sin is rejection of Jesus Christ we do not reject Jesus we only reject sin we give our sin to Jesus and we keep on giving our sin to him till he delivers it from us the moving on to uther Aries of our lives till we become content in him.
Get out of London
OK… I’m not even in London. WTF?
Jesus was a Jew too and he said he came to fulfill Jewish prophecy. If Jesus didn’t exist to die for original sin then he had no purpose and Christianity itself is just a myth.
Now that’s the first thing you have gotten right … “… Christianity itself is a myth”
Please explain how Jesus’ death atoned for all sin past and present. I don’t get it.
Carl, where did Jesus say He would die for “Original sin” or the sins of anyone for that matter? He did have a purpose – to call people to turn back to God for the forgiveness of sin and to proclaim the coming of the long-awaited Kingdom of God. Jewish prophecy was not that a messiah would come to die for the sins of the Jews nor of the world…
Please enlighten me to this verse, all I know of is Jesus saying he came not to abolish Jewish law, but interpret it.
Point 1 – The Bible defines sin as “the deliberate disobedience to the will of God”. The Jews created original sin because they were the only ones
who could commit sin since they were the only ones who knew the will of God.
Point 2 – Why would an omniscient being be surprised at Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit or why would an omnipotent being bother doing
anything when he could get the end result immediately (except as entertainment)?
The Bible only makes sense if God is neither all knowing nor all powerful and is bound by certain spiritual laws. In this case self sacrifice to enable forgiveness for Adam makes some sense and resolves if “He” refers to Jesus or God.
That it didn’t really happen makes little difference since original sin can be taken as symbolic.
Dispensation before the fact is not an original part of any religion I know of.
John, The bible does not define sin as “the deliberate disobedience to the will of God” – The book of Leviticus contains the steps necessary for one to have their sins “Covered over” and to receive the forgiveness from the Gods… but this was only for the “Unintentional” sins. Adams sin was intentional – he knew that he was disobeying the Gods. The bible does not define sin as being “Deliberate disobedience”, only that it is an offensive action to the Gods…
All I can say is: Wow
“I now believe in everything that is written in the Wholly Holey Holy Babble.” – “truth”sayer
I don’t think there’s any chance in changing your mind even if I piled up a hundred passages that refute your claims. The reason being is that you don’t believe that the Bible is God’s Word or truth. You believe that it was compiled by people, committees, and editors…. and by your comment quoted above, even with that understanding you don’t regard it very highly.
WARNING: I just want to warn people reading this, that this person makes overstatements and assumptions.
For instance, he says, “No Biblical Scholar believes that the book of John was written by the apostle John.” I am a biblical Scholar who does believe that the book was written by John. I also know many many other biblical scholars who believe this as well.
here’s a number of passages to say that the death of Jesus to atone for sin was God’s plan all along and is consistent with all Scripture.
You sir, are not a biblical scholar. “Biblical Scholar” refers to people who do not have a pre-disposition to believe the bible. It refers to people who do actual research on the history of the bible and its authors. Most are found in the religion departments of universities. Is that you ? I thought not. I stand by my statement that no bone-fide religious scholar believes that the apostle John wrote the book of John.
Think about it. If the apostle John had been a contemporary of Jesus at around age 30 and he wrote about Jesus some 60-70 years later, John would have been a senile Alzheimer ridden old man. How did he recall, word for word all the words of Jesus and everyone around him?
A Biblical Scholar is simply someone who studies the Bible – yes it includes the history of the book itself and researching the authors – both of which I have done and still do. Pre-disposition has nothing to do with it. A Christian can study the Bible historically just as well as an archaeologist or historian. Although I am not employed by the religious department of a university, I’ve studied with people who were and who also share my conviction that the apostle John wrote the book of John.
Your 1 argument against his writing it is that he would have been old and senile when he wrote it. Can you please share your evidence which proves that John was 30 when the events took place and that he didn’t write about it until 60-70 years later?
You are in a very very very narrow minority. You should really Google who wrote the gospel of John, close your eyes, scroll down and pick an article. The author of this article is right, the overwhelming consensus is that it was multiple people, none of them being John.
First off you see live as a human as the only form of our existents. John is speaking on 2 different levels. Are human existents and our spiritual existents.
Here is why we see evolution as true. We see ourselves as the Apex of intelligence. It wasn’t all that long ago that we thought the world was flat. Now we think we know it all. We know very little. Truth is relative to what we believe. If we could only realize how little we know, and realize the fullest understand of truth is in the one who created. The big bang is essentially from nothing became everything. Try thinking less about what we think we know and more on what we don’t know. Ask God to reveal things to you. One quick thing, if you combine a few stats regarding spirituality,, religion, ect. you will come up with a high pecentage of people on this planet, that believe we are spiritual. In my calculations well over 90 percent. Why isn’t understandings like this used to determining who we really are? But you do the math is it more about who we are as humans or who we are in a spiritual capacity? It’s all about the journey within!
What is your point?
Today in the morning I was walking in the park, as I am doing for some days and meditating about bible, Jesus all that things. And the truth come to my mind, that way I’m here on this page was doing some research about my thoughts. Jesus don’t died for our sin, he lived for what he believed and died for what he believed, he could give up when under pressure, he could say: Ok, you guys are right I not gonna think more about that, let me alive and leave me alone. And than who we gonna follow, if the one has found the truth give up in the middle of the road?? But he gonna to the end and said..You can kill me but you don’t kill my believe. And today we are sure he is the man we should follow the path, he is the way, He show us how to get there and never give up what we believe. Nobody goes to father but through me..through his example, hes life stile, his belief, we need be like Jesus to rich the supreme light, we need reborn again and make ourselves like a children, Jesus shows its possible, everything he did, he did in human form, with pain. You right, Jesus don’t died for our sin, He died to show us the way.
I don’t think I have ever seen more incoherent, illogical, ignorant dribble in all my life than the whole of this page. Truthsayer, your “truth” is all wrong. The single biggest problem with most atheists I have encountered is that they are wounded children who can’t see past the end of their nose. Truth? Truth is enlightened, not vehement in ignorance. In fact, the same goes to the Bible beaters in here. Those who seek truth do not say things like “I don’t care” and “I’ll only believe what I sense with my own, biased, limited sensory perception.” Whether that sensory perception is through the reading of a book, the witnessing of “miracles,” or the knowledge of theory (which by the way, science calls them “theories” because they cannot be PROVEN ABSOLUTELY TRUE, EVER, or they’d be called facts), it is completely ignorant to assume any of you have all the answers. One of the truest assessments of intelligence is the ability to admit when one does not know. Wisdom comes from acceptance.
“incoherent, illogical, ignorant dribble in all my life than the whole of this page”? You’re kidding right? Have you seen any of Donald Trump’s tweets? Surely his dribble is worse than mine.
Instead of assigning a string of pejorative alliterating adjectives to my truth, show me where I am wrong and I will repent, recant and retract.
It is a good analysis and you answered to many of my questions. Thank you!
God loves you and therefore will forgive whatever you say in offense. I pray that He will enlighten you to the eternal truth, not things as irrelevant as the Evolution which is powerless to save us from deaths, but His Son who has willingly died for you and me so that we can come back to the right way. Speak to your soul, not to your mind which is whimsical and is full of useless arguments that are irrelevant to your salvation. Are you happy? Are you truly happy? If so why do you curse people who have opposing thoughts? Feel free to share with me via email. Until then I will pray for you. Hector
The Sin of Adam H.E and Mother Eve is mortality. The GOD came in the flesh in the shoes of HIS son Father Adam H.E, as a bail price to bail HIS son out of hell. But the systems of hell cannot hold GOD and he resurrected HIMSELF, and took Father Adam H.E, Mother Eve and the saints to Eden, which is the 3rd Heaven.
This was also the reason why Father Adam H.E, son in the earth Abel (A Bail) died at the hands of Cain.
This is what was fulfilled. At the last supper, The GOD on the flesh made HIMSELF mortal and gave the church HIS body and took their blood which is what makes us mortal.
The Apostle John was never scenile as he was in the office of the Prophet and could not even be killed.
However, if you read carefully you will see that the conspiracy of JESUS of Nazareth HIS PREEMINENCE dying for the sins of the world actually originated by Caiaphas, a high Priest of the pharisees and it was organsied by them. This is the same people that were called vipers, wicked vipers!
The GOD does not have blood as flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of GOD. HE took the blood from the church and made HIMSELF mortal, fulfilling the LAW and the Prophets
Whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you. Do so even unto them. For that is the Law and the Prophets.
I HAVE THE POWER TO LAY MY LIFE DOWN AND TO TAKE IT UP AGAIN. NO MAN TAKES IT FROM ME.
Father Adam H.E was not deceived. 1 Tim 2:14
Father Adam H.E chose to eat the fruoit of mortality to Procreate Mankind which is only possible as a mortal. So the GOD came to bail him out of Hell and restore him to glory as the son of GOD. That is the cross Father Adam H.E carried.
My Salvation did not demand the death of my dear savior! How the could i call the GOD all forgiving? The fallen nature is mortality and that was the result of eating the fruit.
Ye shall know a tree by its fruit.
This is the truth of the Gospel.
Good God; Do you make this shit up? Where do you get it? Where in the Wholly Holey Holy Book of Babble do you find this nonsense?
As i said, this is the truth of the Gospel – the Exegesis of Genesis, the truth of the original sin, the truth of Salvation. Accept it or reject it according to your will.
If I end up being killed for Jesus then there must be some valid threat. Why go out of your way to kill someone because they believe in Jesus what’s the point if he is nothing?
Jesus is not a religion he is the truth no where in the bible are we instructed to set up separate denominations in church buildings to worship on Sundays.
Age of aquarius age of evil. Watch it on YouTube.
If Jesus is not the truth then why is he such a threat to anyone?
Why waste your time arguing about him.
If someone wants you killed for defending Jesus why is he a problem if it’s not true?
Why kill someone for defending Jesus if he means nothing?
Jesus is not the threat. It is the mindless adherence to fantasy that is found in every religion, the suppression of reason and logic, the denial of science, the killing by Christians and others of those who believe differently.
If the message is so clear, why are there “separate denominations” and religions? Here’s why: Because of all the confusing, contradictory nonsense found in the wholey, holey holy babble book.
Whether you accepted it or not “Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.” And I am not hesitated to says that these Truth cannot be changed whether you like it or not. But I proposed you to know what it is written in John 8:24″Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
if you don’t understand the begaining you wont understand the end god told adam and eve not to eat from the tree thay would die the animal in the tree new what was happing and dident move away. lueserfer was in a difrent part in the garden he used his power on the animal to deceve eve and made noen sin to hur the trees were angels god calls what you no is your fruits the same happens to mankind today we are still deceived the same way thers much more but I cant go in to it some day I will.
Matthew 26:27-28 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them saying, “Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Verse 29: “But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”
The “cup” in the O.T. is a metaphor for divine punishment of sin. Hence, Jesus’ death involved far more than physical death, for He becomes the object of the divine wrath against sin by His identification with sinful man.
Also, Jesus’s death is placed in the context of a Passover (Seder) meal, and since the meal is literally a liturgy, it must be completed or the participants defy the commandment of God.
Four cups must be drunk to complete the ceremony, and the Eucharistic cup Christ passed around at table was what the Jews call “the cup of blessings,” the third cup. However, devoted Jewish people understand that the meal is then cut short, with Christ going to the Garden to pray while forgoing the fourth cup, meaning the meal was not completed. However, later on, in the Garden, Christ prays about “letting this cup pass from me,” which still indicates that Christ has the fourth cup in mind.
He is captured, and eventually sentenced, and again we hear “Truly I tell you, I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God,” another reference to the fourth cup. Notice how he refuses to drink the wine while he still hasn’t suffered.
After his agonizing pain on the Cross, right before His death, Christ is given some sour wine, which He does drink “And someone ran, filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a stick, and gave it to him to drink (Mark 15)” which St. John, an eyewitness, describes in more detail:
A jar full of sour wine was standing there. So they put a sponge full of the wine on a branch of hyssop and held it to his mouth. When Jesus had received the wine, he said, “It is finished.” Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit (John 19:29-30).
In all Gospel accounts, Jesus drank the wine and then died. That wine was the fourth cup which finished the Passover meal.
And what do Jews call the fourth cup? The cup of Salvation, meaning that the Cruxifiction was a part of the Last Supper which ended in the cup of Salvation, bitter in more ways than one.
John 10:14-18: “I am the good shephard; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even as I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold, them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice, and there will be one of flock and one shepherd. Therefore, my Father loves Me because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from my Father.”
The pharisees and Jewish leaders believed either that 1) perhaps Jesus was mad/crazy to call himself God and to assert that He had the power to control His life and death, and, more importantly, the ability to restore life to Himself (as stated in this previous verse) or 2) perhaps He was who He said He was.
With regard to Isaiah 53, Luciana, this is a prophetic verse. In other words, the verse is stating something that is going to happen. The Jewish people KNEW that a Messiah was coming. This is just one of many prophecies, and Jesus fulfilled the prophecy. The Jewish people still believe that a Messiah is coming.
You stated that the problem you had with this is that the verse was written before and not after Christ’s death. If it had been written after, it would not be a prophecy and would merely be a statement of fact. This also suggests to me that you are looking for factual proof that Jesus is who He says He is and proof that God exists. The proof that you are looking for is not to be found unless you are looking for it.
Finally, I read this entire post with some interest in that the “arguments” put forth are not arguments of sound, philosophical thought, but, rather, are arguments of animosity, disdain, and dismissal of other people’s beliefs. The listed “rational points” also show a lack of understanding and knowledge of the Bible and the fundamentals of Christianity. If you are sincerely interested in discussing the tenets of Christianity, they can be discussed and debated without belittling or refusing to consider what the person with differing or opposing views has to say. In being dismissive, you are cheating yourself of the opportunity to expand your mind and learn what others believe and why they believe what they believe. You don’t have to accept it, but there’s no reason to demean the people who suggest answers or alternatives to your opinions. You have a wonderful opportunity to glean insight to beliefs that to you may seem irrational. As a scholar, if you try to understand others’ beliefs and belief systems, not just Christianity, but Judaism, Hindi, etc. you might find it extremely enlightening.
Hope that you and all who contributed to this post find what you need or what you seek.
Wow – Melinda, you carry on like you believe all the nonsense in the Wholly Holey Holy Babble. You quote passages as though they were written by eye-witnesses instead of men who heard about Jesus from someone who heard about Jesus.
If Mark 16:18 is true, why are there hospitals? Show me examples of Mark 16:18 (lay hands on the sick and they will be healed) and I will believe. Come on over to my house and drink some Draino, handle some rattlesnakes and Heal everyone in the local hospital, and by God, I swear I will believe I will pay for your ticket and lodging to Oxford Ohio.
Oh, and don’t give me the ole “you can’t test God” BS. Every prayer that requests something is a test of God. Consider it as witnessing to me.
Thank you, Melinda!
I am a new believer in Christ, and I know what I personally experienced the day Jesus rescued me. I would also like to add that I had almost no biblical knowledge at the time of my rescue. No person led me to believe in Jesus and I didn’t even own a Bible when it happened. I had been in a crisis, and I just called His name; expecting nothing to happen. Instead, I was immediately surrounded with a strength and a love that I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt came from beyond the things of this world.
I have read most of the New Testament, I am very new, young, and I am not very educated in the subject of the Bible and it’s history.
So this article really hit me hard, and really ripped into my newly found hope.
What a terrible thing for someone to do; to try to use clever words to ruin the faith of another.
Seriously, why “truth”seeker would you do this? I understand having your own doubts, but why work so hard to cause others to fall from their faith? In what way does it hurt you if some believe in Christ?
Your argument about Christians and other religious people killing each other has no bearing here. No true Christian would ever kill another for having a different faith. We bless our enemies. We love them and pray for them. We forgive.
Anyone who has done differently has been an unbeliever using God’s name and twisting His word to meet their own evil desires.
I think its a test by God to see whats in peoples hearts. Basically if u accept jesus suffering as somehow remitting your own evil qualities then id say u r pretty much worthless and dont care about truth or logic unless it suits you. Furthermore Those who do think as such lack empathy and are incredibly cruel. I do think God raised Jesus from dead etc performed miracles et al and probably practiced buddhist meditation, mudras, etc but wicked people r in denial aboutwho he was or is about in their lies insecurity. If they truly loved God who is truth (the enemy is always a liar no matter where u go or what u do) then they would use logic (jesus is said to be logos) as you have done and not accept something blindly or at face value because it “sounds nice or beneficial to oneself”. I think if there is a hell most will end up there.
Can you please explain, what it is written in ‘Luke9:35’ or let me understand first, what do you say about who Jesus is? or what is the important of His death and resurrection?
Jesus was an itinerant snake oil salesman selling nonsense to anyone who wanted a free ride (no need to sacrifice your penis or your goats) to eternal life. There is no importance to his death other than the fact that the trumped up story about it created one of the 100’s of religions.
About his resurrection? Never happened. It is only recorded on paper by three people (Matthew, Luke, John) who wrote up to 90 years after the event. On the other hand, there were 1000’s of people alive at the time of his alleged resurrection who say nothing about some guy coming back from the dead. Don’t you think the Romans would have been intensely interested in finding the guy who survived their crucifixion?
Christ died for my sins. I am new. Over night my change came. Just in time too. God and Christ’s there when No One else are. So write and research all you want, but your aim is to prove Christ didn’t die for our sins,why would you find or be looking to find proof He didn’t?
Thatd be backward.but research should be in Truth looked to be proven false first. God bless your search.
Proof He did die* not looking for proof He didn’t. To correct myseld
Wow, someone sold you a soul. Too bad the price for it was your brain.
Whoever wrote this would be hated so much for speaking the truth.Christians have been lied to so much and they would pay for it dearly.Ignorance would be no excuse and the funny thing they think you are a Muslim when you tell them Christ did not die for our sins…im a christian in Africa and in my country(Ghana) my church (Israel King Of Jews Church) is hated so much for preaching Christ did not die for our sin.We are the only church with such beliefs and that makes us unique.why do they even have churches if Christ has died for their sins?isn’t the blood enough for them?they should seek the Holy Spirit for understanding of the scriptures and stop relying on the blood of Christ.Everyone would be judged according to your works…John 17:6 makes it clear that even Christ did not pray for the world but for His disciples only…i did not even pray for the world,talk of dying for the world.better fight for your own salvation and stop the blood of Jesus thing.He gave His blood for us to drink and His body to drink before he was crucified…Why why would people still die even after His death because a great earthquake occurred after His death.there are so many things proving Christ did not die for our sins but i think most Christians are too much in to the lies they have heard so many times.God help us all
Ephesians 2:8-10 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
YHWH (God) cannot make His own Word a lie by breaking His own Law (Torah). Yahushua (Jesus/God) had to come and die in the flesh to end His (Gods) original Marriage Covenant to us (Israel) because of our “adulteries” (idolatry/other Gods) to Him (our Husband). The Word says He divorced us (Israel) because of our adultery. But His (YHWH’s) Law says a divorced women cannot remarry as long as her husband is still living without it being adultery…(unless he be dead). And a Husband cannot take his divorced wife back if she has remarried. Therefore, Yahushua (Jesus) would not be able to come back (second coming) to “Marry His Bride” (New Covenant) without dying a physical death to end the original Marriage Covenant… it would be unlawful for God to take us back according to His Word/Law without His own death.
The so called “sin” that He took by dying on the stake was a measure necessary in order to come back for those of us who are made ready as His Spotless Blemishless Bride. From the beginning it has always been about a Marrige Covenant between us and Him… an adulterous free one.
He did not come and die in the flesh just so we would have a “Paid in Full-Do What You Want-Get Out Of Hell Free-Grace Card”… He had to die in order to “LAWFULLY” marry those of us who LOVE HIM IN TRUTH at the Marriage Supper.
By the way, how does He say that He knows we love Him??
Yes, we obey all that He has commanded… everyone lets say “ALL”.
YHWH LOVE TO ALL ~<3
HOPE THIS BLESSES YOU!
Are you kidding? I will not contemplate that soup of poppycock until I see some of the bible’s verses actually come to life. For example according to Mark 16:17-18, we shouldn’t need hospitals any more. ” And these signs shall follow them that believe…. they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”
So I want you to go to your local hospital, lay hands on the sick and empty the hospital. I will know that you did that because it will be covered world wide; I can see the headlines now “Deborah X of ??? heals every sick patient in local hospital” Do that and when I read of your miracles, then I will contemplate what you wrote.
He not god ,I know things about him,not true,
I see a lot of people don’t understand the bible,they only read it to justify their faith not to understand. A lot of christians don’t know metaphors, images,figurative that are in the bible. That’s why they don’t follow the teaching of christ but Pauline s teaching, I think every christian need to go to theological colleges before calling themselves christians. The most upside down Christianity is happening in America, africa and Europe. Please get study guide about the bible and understand why,how,and where books of the bible were written.
First off, people who do not have the Spirit of God do not understand Scripture all together. I find it so funny yet sorrowful when an atheist or non Christian try and interpret the Bible and have it wrong the entire time. Non-Christians as opposed to Christians who study the Bible cannot understand what Scripture teaches. Paul’s teachings were parallel to Christ’s teachings. Paul’s letters are commentaries on Christ teachings. That is why Peter confirmed Paul as a brother in Christ as well as his epistles in 2 Peter 3:15-16. “I think every christian need to go to theological colleges” this is the silliest statement I have ever heard. How do you account for the ignorant Bible writers to even have the knowledge to write the Bible, especially Jesus’ disciples? They were ignorant as can be. You are not taught in Theological colleges my friend, you are taught by the Holy Spirit of God, for He is our teacher. You are deluded if you think theological school are the source of truth and note that I am not condemning all of the school. My point is that you do not have to go to school to understand the Bible, correctly. There are many people who went to theology schools and even obtained top degree who turned atheist, agnostics, Bible critics and so on. For example, Darwin had a theology degree and didn’t believe…
So let me ask you a question? Do you believe Christ died for our sins, when you take ALL what scriptures teaches about it?
“So let me ask you a question? Do you believe Christ died for our sins, when you take ALL what scriptures teaches about it?”
Clifton…. did you not read what I, the TruthSayer, said about that concept; i.e. “Christ died for our sins”? The ONLY place in the bible where that conceit is even stated is 1Cor 15:3-4. That’s it. Where is “All what scriptures teaches about it”?
It just blows me away for someone to make those types of statement. I mean the ignorance is profound in your response. Christ coming to die for the sins of the people who would believe in Him goes way back to the OT. For example, the book of Isaiah Chapter 53. What in the world are you talking about Paul only mentioning it? It’s all over the gospel. You might not find direct quotes but there are many words and phrases that allude to it. For example, Jesus or the gospel writers used words and phrases like Christ came to forgive, Christ said he came to die and forgive sins, Christ will rise and so on. The message is simple. Secondly, Peter actually stated in, 1 Peter 3:18…again, what in the world are you talking about? What you need to do is repent, stop posting foolish comments, and ask the Lord for forgiveness. I do not see how this is up for discussion….If Jesus didn’t die for our sins then He died for nothing…Lastly, Paul words are the word of God thus all it takes for the bible to say something once for it to be truth…Stop with this demonic nonsense
Non sense I breath life in and exhale death until I expire Sun Khem read this face book page as it is ridiculous to even quote scripture until we find out souls and so as I have sarcastically have stated. Illiteracy and slothfulness of study and keen sense of BS and I don’t mean bachelors of science. Bull dung is all that these religions offer to the ignorant and or peasant aka under a different state of reality. So if you are in the spirit at least you cannot be in the world. So are you then therefore dead or just full of indoctrinated influences. Have you sold all you possess and have you become as a child. How come planes haven’t crashed in to the Kingdom in the clouds? I am being sarcastic literally because I feel like people involved in a belief system are not able to reason with sanity because they are under an oath.
what gets me on the whole thing on the 3 religions of Abraham is….why does an all powerful creator need any specific religion to speak or take up for it? isn’t that beneath and almighty power? second why do you go by the king james version and not earlier texts of the bible? does one version only work to support whoever is in power of the church at that time? and why would anyone really worship anything that requires blood sacraficies or constant admiration or worship? isn’t that more like a dictator?
This has to be the craziest and most ignorant page I have ever seen. This page is absolute ignorant to scripture and lack basic hermeneutics of scripture. I do not know where to begin. Oh how false prophets are condemned.
CLIFTON – I WISH YOU WOULD AT LEAST TRY TO BEGIN. IS THE ASSERTION THAT ONLY PAUL, AND IN ONLY ONE PLACE SAYS “JESUS DIED FOR YOUR SINS” WRONG? SHOW ME!
The Issue with things like this, is that unschooled/ uneducated individuals can make the Scripture say anything they want it to, you can make it look as though that is the only place in scripture that it says that because it also says in Romans 6-10 “You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” so just because it doesn’t distinctly say that Christ died for us in those exact terms “anywhere else” in this passage and many others it says that Jesus died for us, (verse 8) and that he died so we could have reconciliation and be saved through his life (verse 10) that is saying in real terms, that Christ died for us.
there are plenty of websites that will claim things about scripture because they think that the internet is all true, for instance a website claimed that Paul was the antichrist and the entire new testament was the worlds greatest lie, just because He killed Christians, and the Anti-Christ is against Christ and therefore against Christians. props to you Clifton Crawford, for knowing more about what you believe, and also not being someone that is unable and unwilling to stand up when people oppose. In order to understand scripture one must actually put in the time to look at original language and learn it, as well as look at more than one verse, you can take a single verse in scripture and the use it to say just about anything, look at the Bible in its original context, what did it mean to those it was written to, then take it and apply it here, you cannot understand the scriptures depth of meaning without understanding to whom it was written, why, and what circumstances the author as well as the recipients were in at the time.
That’s the difference of reading the WORD OF GOD with the HOLY SPIRIT inside of you and reading it with another anti- Christ spirit in you so you can convience yourself you were born with a license to sin with no repercussion or consequence.
Whether we want to believe it or not , the spiritual world is more real than this physical life we are living at the moment , this life is like a vapor from a tea kettle.
Once the veil gets lifted you will see for yourself and you will believe, hopefully it won’t be to late. Even the demons believe and they tremble, for a good reason too.
I have had supernatural things happen to me in my life which are the only reason I’m here to type this. I have also had demonic supernatural experiences on the other hand and the name “Jesus Christ” stopped them dead in there tracks.
Pray to God for a revelation and I’m willing to bet he will give you one, he wants us all, even though he won’t get us all, since he searches the hearts and some people are just evil and never want to change.
I’m almost ashamed because even when I knew by my testimony he was REAL , I still tried to disprove the Bible , and he showed me more, some was almost to much to handle.
Through it all I never lost faith, GOD\CHRIST JESUS is not proven through the internet, he’s proven through testimony and experiencing him yourself. Pray in your spirit and ask him for HIS GIFTS , to show you , keep an open mind and an open heart.
Remember , the kingdom of Satan is instant power so to speak. The KINGDOM OF GOD is like a seed , it sprouts like agriculture, some times it takes a season ( 3 months ) maybe more or less , but it will grow and you will feel the undeniable power, if you open your heart.
I pray that all unbelievers reading this will keep an open and loving mind and try this whole heartedly, you may be very surprised what you will come to experience.
Eventually everyone will belong to one of those two forementioned kingdoms and the enemy likes his kingdom hidden for a reason , mostly so the majority of people serving it are unaware until its to late.
HE has shown me more than I deserve and trust me , “Jesus Christ I’m betting my soul
May the Lord bless you all and give you a loving revelation
So as a Christians , in what should we believe in and how should we classify ourselves compare to sin
Believe in evolution, the big bang, evidence, truth, love, compassion, diversity, understanding.
I don’t understand “how should we classify ourselves compare to sin”. HUH? Forget about sin. It there was “original sin”, it was washed away when “perfect” Noah and his sons incested the few other “perfect” people left on earth and recreated the entire perfect, sinless population. Make sense?
Remember “Noah was a just man and perfect.” Genesis 6:9. So all of Noah’s offspring (us) are sinless and perfect ourselves. So, not to worry about your sin.
Some translations say Noah was perfect, others righteous, others a man of integrity, blameless. I don’t know of any translation that says he was sinless. These descriptions were not meant to imply he was sinless, only that he faithfully walked with God and so received grace from God (Genesis 6:8). He would not need grace if he were sinless. He inherited the sinful nature just like everyone else, likewise his children and so on.
You sound very confused. Let me ask you a question. IF the wages of Sin is death then why are lucifer and his cohorts still alive? The GOD of Creation is a GOD of justice, no? This should make it clear to you that what they said about Adam H.E disobeying GOD being the sole reason for why we are fallen is a lie. they claim that he became Spiritually dead. This is a lie.
The Spirit of the person is what comes from GOD. The Spirit is immortal. The person is the Spirit, not the body.The Spirit being is the real person. Man being made in the image and after the likeness of GOD is pointing to begetting a Son. Here is proof.
3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Now Adam H.E being made in the image and after the likeness of GOD means HE is like GOD just as Seth is like Adam H.E. Adam H.E was birthed in the image and after the likeness of GOD which is the image of GOD the Son, A Celestial, transfigured body was what was coupled for HIM. This was before the fall of Man. Then Seth was begotten in the image and after the likeness of Adam H.E, after the fall, in the mortal body.
38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
GOD is a Spirit.
24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”
… Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also
is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” …
This verse is a blasphemy against the Character of GOD because GOD cannot Strive. HE does not strive with any. HE is the LORD GOD.
A child is born, a son is given. Isaiah 9:6
… And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: _he will also bless the
fruit of thy womb_, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and …
The fruit is what is produced from it, such as the fruit which is produced from the land.
This reveals that Man is a Spirit and it is the flesh that decays, ages, and dies… The flesh is the mortal body, which is the garment that is unrighteous, the naked body of Man because it lacks any Glory, which is the raiment of Man in his Celestial, Transfigured body. There is no glory in a body that can die.
The lies in the church today that are preached are many:
Baptism: they don’t understand the significance of it and that any person baptised by someone that is not the leader of the church age has not been recognised by our Father in Heaven as being baptised. The oil runs down from the head. Baptism is an ordinance which must be kept because it is signifying going to Abraham’s Bosom where one is washed clean, by the washing’s of regeneration. Any that are not successfully baptised, will spend a much longer time in Abraham’s bosom so much so that they shall not inherit Eden, rather, the new earth shall be their inheritance. The reason is that they were not made perfect at the time of the first resurrection, and thus had to wait for the 2nd Resurrection.
These are the Spirits of the Just Men made perfect that shall rise first. All other Spirits not made perfect by the first resurrection shall not be resurrected.
Born Again: Nicodemus is representing a case of the blind leading the blind. Being a ruler of the Jews and not knowing that you need to be born again, the GOD was revealing that he is blind, because he cannot see Heaven, and yet, was supposed to be leading GOD’s people to Heaven.
Now Christians today think they have been re-born into a perfect Creation, and yet they can still fall sick, age and die. They believe that they have imputed righteousness, that merit is not rewarded lest any man should boast, and that death, which GOD calls our enemy, is the route to Heaven.
If death is the route to Heaven, then why would the GOD resurrect Lazarus? Why would GOD keep Lazarus from Heaven? When the GOD said, loose him and let him go, it was revealing that those who die are in a prison, where they must wait until being resurrected. Death is therefore not the route to Heaven.
Being born again is not a confession. James reveals this when he said:
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
A birth is pointing to the rebirth of the body, which the church has dubbed as Rapture (1 Cor 15:50-58). It is not a rapture, it is not something that happens without works. And those works are stipulated as follows.
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink his blood ye have no life in you. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. This HE said as the WORD which was made flesh for food.
35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
51 If a man keep my sayings, he shall never see death.
This is revealing that the WORD has not been in the earth because people are still dying. That is because the bible is diluted, wrought with blasphemies, lies and incomplete verses mistranslated by the ones that put the bible together because they were not called to do so. Thus, many verses do not contain the Spirit in the WORD, that life Giving WORD, which is the reason for John 6:53
the Son of Man is not JESUS CHRIST our supreme LORD. The Son of Man is the Son of Adam H.E, The Spirit of Elijah.
The GOD who knows the end from the beginning as opposed to what is written in Rev 22:18, Knows HIS own and cannot make mistakes. Knowing that the WORD would be trampled on, blasphemed, that the prophets of baal shall make merchandise out of it, and that the WORD would be diluted (leavened) incomplete, HE sent The spirit of Elijah to restore all things. This is what many Christians don’t want to acknowledge, because then it means their faith is for nought, that their belief is a lie. The following verses reveal this to be true.
Malachi 4:4-6, Acts 3:19-23, Rev 10:7, Rev 18:4, John 16:12-15, Matt 17:11
Noah was an Angel of the church Age, the 2nd Angel of the 2nd Church, who coupled the ARK of safety whereby no plague entered therein. There was no death of any of the lives in the ARK and none of the flood entered either. HE was eating the WORD of GOD and yet he had no bible to read revealing that WORD HE was eating was from GOD HIMSELF. That is the reason why men lived 100s and 100s of years, because if the WORD, pure, raw that they were eating which is REVELATION knowledge, not faith, is the food which keeps you from Ageing, getting sick and dying.
The point is that there are only 2 Holy Men of GOD which did not die in their sins. Those are Enoch and Elijah. These are the only two men that profited from their salvation because the great Prophets transfigured in life and never tasted death. This has been the message from the beginning. You can live and not die at all, and that was the reason for Gen 1:28
The transfigured body is your righteous body because it can not decay, age and die. It is perfect, fearfully and wonderfully made. Everyone that has not put on their transfigured body is living in their sins. Why? Because they are still decaying, ageing and dying. Death and ageing is a reproach unto GOD because HIS WORD is the solution. So GOD’s Church is therefore an immortal bride, one that is not ageing, getting sick or dying. A mortal is not living, they are dying.
Therefore, no individual sins (transgressions) of the people outside the ARK were cleansed in the flood, rather the earth was cleansed from the evil which the tare Angels did, poisoning the DNA of Man and animals alike, bringing forth offspring that are outcasts, not man not angel, No soul or Spirit, only body. It was the sweet savour of a cleansed earth which the LORD smelled, not the blood of an offering.
The ones that put the bible together have made GOD out to be someone that delights in blood, and smells it as a sweet savour. This is a lie. For it is written:
blood cannot inherit the kingdom of GOD. Blood is the life of the flesh, you shall not consume it, it is an abomination. So why would the GOD delight in it, if HIS children are commanded not to? Lies!
The Gospel is about the kingdom race of the People of GOD that are sent into the earth to pick up a body from their parents, seek the LORD GOD, eat the WORD of GOD, transfigure that mortal body into the immortal Celestial body without ever dying at all. Only that the Previous Angels of the church ages were not able to ACCURATELY interpret GOD’s Height of Communication, because they are in the similitude of the body and not the Spirit. The Spirit is what leads the body. The body cannot lead the body to Heaven. Thus, inaccurate interpretations has given the church the wrong mindset.
Mankind is the prestigious race, the head of all the Heavenly Citizens, the biological children of GOD because our Spirit (the real person) comes from GOD. Im not talking about GOD’s Most Holy Spirit, but the Spirit inside the person from their birth into the earth, which if they are HIS children, is a Holy Spirit in recognition of where that person (Spirit) has come from. GOD does not possess HIS children as demons do. GOD’s Most Holy Spirit does not live inside the mortal flesh of anyone. THAT IS A LIE!
We being immortal are in a fallen nature because we are in a mortal body that can age, get sick and die. That fallen nature is the result of sin. Thus Mortality is the sin nature. No Mortal is righteous because they are capable of transgressions and death is a reproach unto GOD. It is the blood in the body that is the life of the flesh. This is revealing that the blood, which cannot inherit the kingdom of GOD must be drained from the body and this is the re birth.
Heaven is not a ghost world or else there is no reason for a resurrection. therefore it is a real physical place which requires you to have a body. That body is your passport into Heaven and that body is the Celestial, Transfigured body of Man – the Original Anatomy of Man. This body is knwn better by the church as the resurrection body.
The rebirth does not mean to die, but that the WORD of GOD has the power to transfigure you by draining the blood in your body which immortalises you in life.
Without the shedding of blood there can be no re mission of sins.
Terrestrial foods which sustain the mortal body deposits vitamins and minerals which provides energy and health. In the same way, Divine Eucharistic Revelations (pure WORD of GOD) deposits immortal cells in the body which renews the person daily with limitless energy, strength and being unable to ever get sick.
He that is whole needs not a physician.
Born again is pointing to a rebirth which makes the person Whole, which is doing away with the current cell system – blood and overthrowing it completely with the Zoe cell system. Zoe cells, unlike blood cells do not multiply, they must be added into the body by eating Revelation knowledge of the GOD dispensed by the Son of Man. The re-birth is a Progressive one that takes place over time. this is why Enoch lived 300 years walking with GOD. For it took him 300 years to transfigure.
Therefore, they are a like a mustard seed (must add) seed which once they are in their full state transfigure the body which is taller and mightier than a palm tree and the systems of the earth enabling you to move mountains because an immortal is not bound by the LAWS and bounds of the earth. This is what GOD meant by:
Love the LORD your GOD with all your heart and with all your mind and with all your strength. For Revelation knowledge is knowing the GOD, not believing in HIM or having “faith”. Faith is milk, it is ghostly, while Knowledge is meat.
And the second command is pointing to your body. For you are a Spirit, immortal and Holy, so love your neighbour ( your body) as yourself means to immortalise your body, put on righteousness in life, because a person that has transfigured cannot break the LAW. They are perfect. A transfigured Being has no blood, or water in the body, only Zoe Cells, which is the life force for immortals.
I typed up all this in the hope that it will open your eyes to see that you have good reason to doubt the current bible, but that the GOD is truly Almighty and Faithful and has one VOICE. The fact that you have not been deceived yet appear to have knowledge of the Scriptures is a sign of seeking the truth, and if that be the case, then this truth that ye seek, is what ive just shared with you.
Knowing that you can live and not die is the hardest thing for a mortal to believe, yet that same mortal believes he will be resurrected. This is the message that one can know is true, and still have Iotas of unbelief. This is the message that shall reap the souls of the children of the kingdom, separated the true Jews from the false, for the false cannot transfigure, hear or understand this Gospel. This Gospel is for Pure Hominids only.
Adam and Eve in genius is just a metaphor in the storyline of right and wrong tree of knowledge well who wouldn’t want it, look where we are now. And she was also told of God giving us free will. She chose knowledge so to speak of.
Adam and Eve were real life people who lived in a real time in history. Jesus referred to them as well…if Adam and Eve were metaphors then how did the earth populate? Wow would Genesis says that they filled the earth and so on…Genesis doesn’t make sense if Adam and Eve is metaphor. The genealogy doesn’t make sense either all throughout the Bible…
You are right! Genesis doesn’t make sense if Adam and Eve is a metaphor. Couldn’t agree more. What evidence do you have, other than words written by ignorant (not stupid, ignorant) men 3500 years ago that Adam and Eve were real people?
There is no doubt that we evolved from ooze in the swamp millions of years ago. At what point did we have only two people, Adam and Eve? If you believe the fable that Adam and Eve were the only two people and that we all “evolved” from them, then at what point in our development did incest and inbreeding become bad for the development of the species? Who did Cain marry? After the flood, we started all over again. Once again we would have had brother and sister making babies. We know that produces a horrible outcome these days but you are saying that didn’t happen with the progeny of Adam and Eve and Noah?
I would love to hear your response to fact.
so did god create the apple in the first place??kind of dumb in a way to make something you already knew what was going to happen if you supposedly know the future.
That would be h.e. god.
What is “h.e.”?
My grandfather and my father John.
That would be his father h.e.god.
He is eletric to the bank account and the town of Anderson SC USA. He is also my way home.
Point in the Bible is Jesus died for the sins of Adam recorded in 1 Corinthians 15 pointing to one fact –out sin is from Adam NOT GOD. Jesus settle the issue of Adams sin which also includes us. Now the Family of God in the world is back in force. Satan opposes all we do but can not lay a hand on us only trick others in interfering in out life.
You actually believe that crap – original sin? How was Eve to know that the snake wasn’t God? After all, at least the snake talked to her; she only heard “God’s word” as hearsay from Adam. Why should Eve even trust Adam? He didn’t look like her. There was only a passing reference to a particular tree in the middle of a bunch of trees.
Why would God want to withhold knowledge from those he created anyway. Why didn’t …. oh the heck with it. The whole story is so preposterous it doesn’t warrant any more of my time.
It is sad that humans, that are supposed to be the most intelligent animal
life on earth can believe that a snake talked to Eve! I bet you see Santa Claus come down your chimney every pagan Christmas if you have a chimney or not! I bet you see the Rabbits laying colored eggs. You take the Bible of so many fairy tales, and teach your children all the lies of your pagan religion, and culture. No wonder you can believe that in the pagan bible where it says water was turned to blood,manna fell from heaven, the earth stopped rotating, and rotated backwards ten degrees, the Red Sea parting, Jonah being swollowed by a whale, the donkey talking, the ax head floating to the surface of the water, there was no day light for three days, and nights. All this
belief in these fairy tales is dew to people not wanting to die. They have a misguided hope of an after life. They listen to a bigger liar than a polititan, and
that is a preacher! They lie, that, the idol Jesus is coming back very soon. All
generations die, and it does not happen. The original lie was the he would come back before that generation would die, and that lie is repeated by the
faults words of the NT every since, wake up animals, yes the same bible declares you are not above an animal. Why let preachers steal your money, and time?
Again nonsense god had to invent this original sin if all exists because of it…why punish you for something it created?
This is the problem with the lack of understanding you possess. In Revelations it is written: And that old Serpent, to show that the serpent is still alive. The serpent was not a snake possessed. Nor was it lucifer, Rather is was a Seraph called Kalia. This is also revealed in the fact that the serpent is referred to as a female in Genesis, because the Seraphim are the Females while a Cherubim is the Male. Lucifer is a Cherub.
If you were a reasonable student of the bible at one stage, you may have heard or read the story of Naboth and his vineyard. He was killed by the hands of Jezebel, a Prophetess for the occult, so that she could give the vineyard to Ahab. This is where we see the truth of what happened in Eden. Naboth is Adam His Eminence, the Vineyard is earth, Jezebel is the Seraph Kalia, and lucifer is Ahab. The reason why you and many cannot understand the bible is because the truth has been sealed, to set those up that are not called, but yet preach saying: I am a Prophet, or an Apostle, or a Pastor that has been anointed to feed the people.
Only a true Prophet can reveal the truth because he comes with the keys of the kingdom, and walks with the Most Holy Spirit (not possessed by GOD) and can interpret GOD’s Height of Communication and dispense the truth in the form of REVELATION knowledge. GOD has one voice, and any that do are not sent do not come with HIS voice.
So, for that reason i understand why the bible confuses you as you are not a Prophet, but you are not fake either and you acknowledge that what you read does not make sense. This reveals that you may be a child of the kingdom, one that cannot be deceived by the lies. OR else, you are not, in which case none of what is written is for you anyway.
Adam😂 Alison do Alison McQueen. I WWILL take with honor everyones sin upon Mr and my mortal
I will take place of the time now. When I do go before another judge and five 12 hour Saturdays ina year. I’m maximum security.
Adam and Eve in genius is just a metaphor in the storyline of right and wrong tree of knowledge well who wouldn’t want it, look where we are now. And she was also told of God giving us free will. She chose knowledge so to speak of. Thank you very much
And from Jesus Christ which is that faithful witness, and that first begotten of the dead, and that Prince of the Kings of the earth, unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his blood, (Revelation 1:5)
El Prince thank you for your help and music I love the opportunity to work with you.
Actually, I pray to Y’shua. And, while my name is Elizabeth in English, it is Elisa en Español, and something else in Greek, something else in Hebrew. The God who gave us different languages at the tower of Babel knows them all.
Pray to G-d the Father only, as Yeshua himself did. No where is there in the Holy Bible nor any scripture where Yeshua (Jesus) instructs
anyone to worship nor pray to himself. Indeed the very example of Yeshua was submission to G-d alone. Hear o Israel the Lord your G-d is one.
He brew flat earth beer. Location South Carolina and Virginia.
When Jesus promised that some standing there would not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom, he took Peter, James and John up a mountain six day later. There, they saw Jesus transfigured in His glorified state, along with Moses and Elijah (representing the law and the prophets). Remember that the Scriptures claim that neither of these men was buried on earth.
Peter, James and John all saw Jesus in His kingly state before they tated death. James was the first to join his Savior in the heavenly kingdom. Peter joined him later, through crucifixion (tradition holds that he pleaded to be crucified upside down ). John had to watch all of his fellow disciples go on to the heavenly kingdom ahead of him, while he remained behind, encouraging fellow believers with words from the Holy Spirit. Yet, each one of these men us even more alive than you or I at this point.
When I taste death, it will be that -a taste – before I enter the eternal service of my King and Savior, Jesus Christ, who loved me and gave His life for me.
Going up to the spirit in the sky. That’s where I will go when I die, because I have a friend in Jesus the Christ and Stone.
So, since you completely discount the Bible, what is your source of truth? You claim to believe in God, and claim to not need His Son.
I know you will scoff at this, but this is the verse that came to my mind first when I read your most recent comment :
“Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish in the way, for His wrath is easily kindled.” (Psalm 2:12, ESV)
Jesus proclaimed, “I am the way, the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6). You either believe him or call him a liar. When you face the Father, you will be asked only one question : “What did you do with My Son?” If you spent your life calling him a liar, what do you expect the Father to do with you?
If you really believe that you are a better source of truth than the Bible, you have incredible faith. Is the object of your faith truly worthy?
May you find the peace of God, as well as the God of peace.
What I do know is that Jesus loves you enough that He laid down His life for you. He rose again and has been given by His Father the name that is above every name. You will bow down to Him and acknowledge Him some day, as Lord of Lords. If not during your time on earth, you will do so before you choose to go away from Him forever to the only place in the universe you can be away from His presence. The choice is yours to make. He loves you enough to honor your choice.
What about my comments below? That you, in acknowledging the ENTIRE BIBLE, you condone all the atrocities permitted, committed and condoned by God?
WRT “Jesus loves you enough that He laid down His life for you”. How do you know that? Oh, the Wholly Holey Holy Bible says so. Well, that just about proves it doesn’t it. In that same book of lies, Jesus also tells his followers:
“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Matthew16:28”
Not true was it. Jesus even emphasizes his pronouncement with a “Verily” in front of the promise.
What choice? My name is either written in the book of life or it is not. If you believe the cockamamie that Jesus “died for our sins”, then I too am saved. Jesus said you only had to believe in the father, not that he would die and be resurrected.
You have listed isolated verses with no regard for context. The Bible, though written over about 1,500 years by many different human writers, is ONE COHERENT story of God’s love for humanity because it has been inspired by the Holy Spirit. He always points to Jesus.
The Old Testament sacrificial system (beginning in the garden of Eden, when God made coverings for Adam and Eve from animal skins) was always a substituruinary death of the sacrifice on behalf of the repentant sinner. It foreshadowed Jesus, the REAL DEAL.
Revelation refers to the LAMB no fewer than 27 tomes. This is the lamb who was slain, who is worthy of praise, who will return to earth to slay all of his enemies, who will save his follwers, who will reign forever as King of Kings and Lird of Lords. What did this lamb need to do before reigning forever? Die and rise again. What makes him a LAMB (sacrifice)? He died to pay for the sins of the world. He is the atoning sacrfice. His sacrifice makes reconciliation with the Father possible.
This is the central theme that runs from Genesis through Revelation. My context is the ENTIRE BIBLE.
Oh Elizabeth, I am SO very glad to hear that your context is the ENTIRE BIBLE.
That means you condone the millions that God killed while protecting HIS Children of Israel. You condone priests raping little boys in the name of God because the bible says God is all powerful. That means He could have intervened if he wanted to.
You totally condone this passage from Numbers:
31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
That’s just great Elizabeth. I hope we never meet because I do work on the Sabbath and you are compelled by your belief in the ENTIRE BIBLE to stone me until I am dead. BTW… do you eat shellfish? That’s an abomination to God you know.
And, Elizabeth how about this:
That which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. Luke 16:15
That means that whatever people value the most (kindness, wisdom, courage, love, money, power, sex, and cell phones) are all an abomination to your God.
And don’t tell me Xians don’t cherry pick verses. How many times have I heard John 3:16 without any context.
Greetings Elizebeth Verde,
You put your faith in the name of Jesus, I don’t believe it will hurt you, but that name will not help you either.
I hope you realize that the name Je-sus is not the name that is in the Greek Text? Why would I think it was of importance?
Because what the Greek Text tells us. Acts 4:12, be advised that the Greek Text says this, the Greek Text has the name of
this supposed son, NEITHER IS THERE SALVATION IN ANY OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN GIVEN AMONG MEN,
WHEREBY WE MUST BE SAVED. This name in Greek is ( Ie-sous ) pronounced ( ee-ay-souce’ ) Strongs #2424, notice very closely that that the utterance is quite different than the N.T. Jesus. Acts stresses that the utterance is important. I don’t know if
you care one way or the other. The N.T. is a translation of the Greek Text, what does translation mean Elizabeth? It means to change. So young lady, you have a changed name of the original Greek name. Yes, even people say this writing was originally written in Hebrew. If it were so, which it is not, it would be pronounced Yahshua, but by using this false name Jesus you would still
fall short of salvation, false names do not count. I shall show you how serious I am. Notice John 14:13-14, And whatsoever you
ask in my name that will I do,that the Father may be glorified in the son.
If you shall ask anything in my name I will do it. Elizabeth do you whole heartily believe these two scriptures ????
I believe after 40 years of study that this is a lie!
I SAM MASSEY JR? ASK IN THE NAME OF JESUS TO STRIKE ME DEAD AT 8:30 P.M. on May 31 2016, I ask in the
foolish name of Jesus Christ. So be it ! you ought to visit http://www.free-truth.com Do you think something is going to happen to me
in the next few minutes? It never has happened before, why now ? The supposed Old Testament, and the writings of Churchianity
called the New Testament are not scriptural, neither is the word Bible something holy! Even King Tut believed in an after life, it is
nothing new. The Bible is really Baal worship. I think I have wasted my breath, heavy Jesus believers don’t really listen,
they think that they will die and then open their eyes, to see Jesus! Eccl.9:5, For the living know that they shall die, but
the dead know not anything. It is very close to 8:50 P.M. I am still breathing , so the prayer I asked is a lie, like the rest of the Bible.
The entire book of Hebrews is centered on the theme of Jesus having sacrificed his own body to purify faithful human beings from their sin. Of course, the book must be read and understood in its entirety, and in the context of the rest of Scripture (both Old and New Testaments). However, the following verses point specifically to Jesus’ successful sacrifice:
1:3b “After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,”
9:11-14 “But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation” he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing eternal redemption. For it the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.”
9:26b “But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”
10:11-14 “And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ has offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.”
13:12 “So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood.”
The book of Hebrews explains Jesus’ words to his disciples during His final Passover meal with them, as recorded in Matthew 26:27-28:
“And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, ‘Drink of it all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.'”
Jesus IS the Passover Lamb for the sins of the entire world. By faith, we come under the covering, redemption, and washing of his blood.
John 1:29 “The next day he [John the Baptizer] saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!”
The same author, John, one of the inner circle of disciples of Jesus, wrote:
1 John 2:2 “He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.”
Peter, another of the inner circle, wrote:
1 Peter 2:24: “He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds we have been healed. For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.”
1 Peter 3:18
“For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. . .”
Peter refers directly to the prophet Isaiah, who predicted the death of God’s anointed Servant:
Isaiah 53:4-6 “Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turnes — every one — to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
This is likely the same passage of Scripture Paul had in mind when he wrote the passage you dismiss as being a singular outlier is Scripture. He may be the only Scripture writer to pen the exact words “Christ died for our sins,” but all of these passages are in harmony with the idea. Here is a reminder of the gospel, the good news that Jesus died for our sins, and that he rose again:
“For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas [Peter], then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all of the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God with me. Whether then it was I or they, so we preach, and so you believed.”
The soul that sinneth it shall die. The son shall ( NOT ) bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father
bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of
The wicked shall be upon him.
Ps.40:6, Sacrifice and offering Thou did not desire; mine ears hast Thou pierced: burnt-offering and
SINN OFFERING has Thou not required.
Elizabeth, who cares what the book of Hebrews says. No one even knows who wrote it. If it was written by Paul it is totally discredited because he is a liar. He said Jesus would return in the lifetime of those who were listening to his drivel.
Paul preached counter to what Jesus preached. Jesus preached that there were many ways to salvation but he always included faith in His Father and good works. Paul, totally opposite, said that ONLY faith in the resurrection was necessary for salvation. Jesus would have kicked Paul out of the club had Paul been preaching along side Him.
Why do you think quoting verses from the Wholly Holey Holy Babble has any affect on a TruthSayer?
John was not among the inner circle of disciples, if by “inner circle” you mean the original 12.
Your site exists to “Free persons of all faiths from the tyranny of their religion,” and while that may sound admirable and useful, you must acknowledge the great irony of such a mission statement. Your freeing them is simply bringing them under the tyranny of your way of thinking. By spending so much time & energy in convincing people to think as you do, you are trying to bring them under your perspective. So you see, one way or another, we are all under something, whether it be Christianity, Hinduism, Atheism, etc., and the problem is not the so-called “tyranny” of any of these belief systems but rather which is the truth. And by freeing people from such “tyranny,” you are claiming that your perspective is the truth. In fact, you are claiming that your perspective is so true, so great, that it is the one view that liberates people from all their current views.
In doing so, you may want to humble yourself, carefully evaluate what you do believe, and ensure that you are truly right, confidently right, before influencing other people. It is a tremendous responsibility to teach anyone anything, especially about religion and philosophical questions, for it can shape their worldview.
– “Slave” of Christ
“In fact, you are claiming that your perspective is so true, so great, that it is the one view that liberates people from all their current views.”
YEP… You got that right.
“In doing so, you may want to humble yourself, carefully evaluate what you do believe, and ensure that you are truly right, confidently right, before influencing other people. It is a tremendous responsibility to teach anyone anything, especially about religion and philosophical questions, for it can shape their worldview.”
YEP… I did all that and I sincerely hope it does shape their worldview to quit believing nonsense. Wouldn’t that be wonderful.
Paul tried to change peoples’ worldview too but he told them lies. He said Jesus would return in the lifetime of his listeners. I haven’t said anything that isn’t true. What’s wrong with that?
I honestly can not think how what people believe can let you spent hours to change that. It does not effect you in any way what these people think.
And I will call it pure stupidity to read a book called the bible , and quote scriptures to disprove it. If you do not believe the bible, enjoy your time on things that dont upset you. There is no sense in getting upset and trying to change peoples views if it does not harm you personally.
Do you spent your life trying to convince football lovers that it is stupid because you think so… just an example and not saying you dont like football.
I will tell you why, because God has put eternity in your heart and that is why it is bugging you so much. Every human has that THING inside of him. And that is the reason you do it. Why spent your life trying to disprove something YOU DONT BELIEVE IN. There is the irony disproving something you dont believe in.
HOLY SMOKES Stefan…. have you been talking to my wife? She is spot on with you except for the part where you say God has put eternity in my heart. What does that even mean?
My answer to “why do I do it” is this: I believe religion and the belief in the supernatural is a force for evil. The self-proclaimed apostle Paul went around telling lies about the supernatural; I am using the Internet to tell the truth about the book that tells the worst lies ever told. Look at the motto “Free persons of all faiths from the tyranny of their religion”. I am the “Paul” of atheists.
You know what truthsayer?
I don’t know how to reply dirctly to your reply to mine so i will do it here.
God has put eternity in your heart means that just the mere fact that humans discuss God, evil, afterlife and meaning of life and so on is a supernatural thing, and that YOU that dont believe in it will spent all your time and energy on it and that you can’t explain.
So to say you want to bring truth to people is a justification for something you DON”T know why you do it and why it is bugging you so much.
I DID TELL YOU WHY I DO IT.
Please tell me why is it only Christianity and the bible you disprove according to yourself.
Why not take on the moslems and the koran and rip that apart, Why not go to Scientology , Buddhism , Hinduhism and all the rest of the religions and spent your life disproving THEM about their gods??
STEFAN – YOU ARE SUCH A CONCRETE THINKER, UNABLE TO THINK BEYOND WHAT IS IN FRONT OF YOU. I ONLY KNOW THE DETAILS OF XIANITY BUT ASSUME THAT ANYONE READING MY TRUTHS CAN EXTRAPOLATE BEYOND MY CRITIQUE OF XIANITY TO SEE THAT WHAT I SAY ABOUT XIANITY ALSO APPLIES TO THOSE OTHER SUPERNATURAL BELIEFS. SEE? I DOUBT IT.
And to tell me that religion is a way to evil is a joke, because evil is a religious term, and evil can only exist if God exists. WHOS SAYS? PROVE IT.
Thats where it comes from n the first place from religion.
You cannot be the PAUL because according to you the bible is not true , so Paul is not real and all the rest of the bible must be fictional. AGAIN CONCRETE THINKING. YOU JUMP TO THE CONCLUSION THAT I CONTEND THAT EVERYTHING IN THE BIBLE IS NOT TRUE – WRONG SOME OF IT IS HISTORY AND IS TRUE. PAUL IS A CHARACTER IN THE BIBLE THAT I BELIEVE WAS REALLY THE PERSON HE IS REPRESENTED TO BE. I AM PROVIDING A SERVICE TO ALL OF HUMANITY JUST AS HE WAS DOING.
If i tell you today that i believe that the earth will vanish in the next 80 years, will you believe it? NO you won’t but what if i DO BELIEVE it.
You cannot PROVE that i am wrong and i cannot prove that i am right. Now we sit with the same problem as people wanting to prove life after death and no life after death, and proof for God and no proof for God.
But i know for a fact that you will not dedicate a website and discuss with me and other people day in and day out that the earth will not vanish, Rather i believe you will say that you wont waste your time on something so stupid. If Stefan wants to believe that he is a moron and i wont waste even 5 minutes on discussing it with him.
SO, SO BLAH.
So you see, there is the reason i believe that God IS REAL.
The mere fact that non believers will spent their lives disproving something they don’t believe in , read a book day in and day out that they call fiction and then try to disprove it by its own content is proof GOD exists. WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.
The reason the other religions is not so much in the spotlight and you don’t dedicate websites and your time to it is because ITS NOT TRUE.
Do you see what i am getting at?
NO, YOU MAKE LITTLE SENSE
I would LOVE to see you take on VISHNU one of the hindu Gods and fight with them about it day in and day out and disproving it.
You won’t do that and you know why?… Yes you guessed it…mmmm….. Because vishnu is NOT real and not true. So your inner being will find it a waste of time, just the same as arguing with me if the earth will vanish in 80 years.
NOPE – WRONG AGAIN. THE CONCEPT OF VISHNU IS AS STUPID AS BELIEVING THAT JESUS DIED FOR YOUR SINS BUT I DON’T KNOW MUCH OF THE NONSENSE THAT UNDERLIES “BELIEF” IN VISHNU.
PLEASE DON’T WRITE AGAIN. I AM SIGNING OFF RESPONDING TO YOU.
I really hope that you can put your logic mind to my words and maybe you will see that spending your life disproving something that doesn’t exist is something you yourself cannot explain, only lame excuses and justifications is what there is.
But that book you quote and your site is dedicated to give you the answers why you do what you do.
Please dont write again. Bwhahahahahaaaaaa
Well I am and talk about logic?
Here is your athiestic logic.
I will spent my life doing everything in my power to disprove no-thing because God is nothing so actually im doing nothing.
Whats your definnition then of evil?
And when you are sick, please dont go to doctors because the weakest should die out that the strongest can survive as in evolution. So please dont mess up the future of our children and the future of the UNIVERSE by healing people. Let the weakest die and the strongest survive.
You see when people quote bible verses to you you rip them apart but when you deal with someone that DONT quote the verses YOU cannot debate and that is just sad because logic athiests dont have.
By the way I wont BOTHER you again instead I will pray for you
I agree with most of what you say, but I am having trouble with the prophecies of Isaiah. In Isaiah 53 are prophecies which many claim refer to Christ’s death. They suggest that the death was an atonement for sins. What do you make of them? If they had not been written before the fact, they would not trouble me as much.
Prophecies of Isaiah? Who cares? “Many claim…” that’s it. They’re wrong. There is no such thing as someone who can forecast the future. Not now, not then, never. There are many who think prophecy is real but they are always looking back and twisting the present to meet some person’s stupid utterance whilst under the influence of the drug de jour.
There are thousands of “prophecies’ that you never hear about because those that made them shut up after they fail. Or how about those that you have heard about (how many times have we heard that the end will come on mo/day/yr) that fail?
Those prophecies that appear to be accurate are merely coincidental if anything.
Matthew appends “according to prophecy” onto much of what he says. Biblical scholars are unable to corroborate many of his claims. Matthew has Jesus born in Bethlehem – Mary and Joseph just happen to be there. Luke has to make up a cockamamie story about the Romans taking a census and making everyone return to their ancestral home (do you know the ancestral home of your 16th generation removed?) in order to get baby Jesus born in Bethlehem. Both stories have Jesus of Nazareth born in Bethleham “according to prophecy”.
Prophecy is nonsense. Forget about it. In Mark, Jesus “prophecies that the temple would fall. It did. Mark was written AFTER the fall of the temple! See what I mean?
Do a Google search on “Failed Prophecy”. You won’t be able to finish it.
Thanks for your input. I really appreciate it.
Fred here,Jesus said according to the bible I came that you might have life and have it more abundantly.
Ok…. and your point is?
What make you think I give a fig about what Jesus is alleged to have said? All Jesus quotes are written by anonymous authors at least 40 years after they were allegedly spoken by someone, maybe a man named Jesus.
Can you remember, word for word, character by character, scene by scene, a movie you saw 40 years ago? For “John” it would have been 60 years after the fact. John would have been in his 90s, a senile, Alzheimer ridden old man who probably couldn’t even remember where his hat was.
Unless it was actually GOD who revealed the future to Isaiah.
PRESUPPOSES THAT THERE IS A GOD – WHICH THERE IS NOT.
Why don’t you just come out and say that you put no credibility in the Bible whatsoever.
OK – I’LL SAY IT. I PUT NO CREDIBILITY IN THE SUPERNATURAL ASPECTS OR THE STORY OF JESUS’ DIVINITY WHATSOEVER.
Why don’t you just outright claim to be the Singular Source of truth yourself?
I AM THE Singular Source of Truth! NO! WAIT! I AM NOT THE ‘SOURCE’ OF TRUTH, I AM THE SAYER OF TRUTH AND THAT’S THE TRUTH.
Your article and your replies to others’ comments imply that this is what you believe. GOOD FOR YOU – YOU GOT ME.
Of course, I believe quite differently than you do. I believe Jesus told the truth here: “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me.” John 14:6
JOHN 14:6 WAS WRITTEN BY AN ANONYMOUS WRITER OR WRITERS SOME 60 YEARS AFTER JESUS DIED. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT JESUS ACTUALLY SAID THOSE WORDS. CAN YOU REMEMBER EVERY WORD SOMEONE SAID, WORD FOR WORD EVEN 30 YEARS AGO?
Truth is you DO Care what Jesus said… mmmm that is why you debate it day in and day out
Doubt your doubts
Prophecy is fake ?
Don’t tell me you actually took what the man said seriously!
Keep seeking the Lord Jesus Christ
And may he bless you infinitely
I whole heartedly agree! Thank you for sharing. Teresa
Nice little piece here. Thought provoking for those who only believe in Christianity’s normal views. Adam and Eve shouldnt not be looked at 100% literal. Adam and Eve’s fall is what takes place in us. The Bible says the carnal mind is at opposite ends with God. Which is choosing or eating of the “forbidden fruit.” That fruit is staying in our left brain, which is the carnal mind, knowing Good and Evil. Which is the spiritual death that is talked about when Adam and Eve get kicked out of paradise. Now Salvation is to save us in the here and now to enjoy life of bliss or “heaven on earth” if you will. John 3:16 is beautifully written when you pair it with what Jesus said in John 17:3, “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” Jesus defines what life eternal or everlasting life is in John 17:3. So re-read John 3:16 with the new definition. To know God and Jesus Christ is to take part of the right brain, which is the Tree of Life in Genesis.
OK I won’t take Adam and Eve 100% literal. What percentage should I take it as literal?
And as for John 3:16…. I won’t take any part of that literal. How’s that you cherry picker. How is one supposed to know which parts to take literally and which part not 100% literal? You Xians just love John don’t you. You know John did not write John don’t you? And even if he did, he would have been in his 90s, a senile Alzheimer ridden old man who was trying to remember just where he left his quill pen let alone recall what Jesus said, word for word, some 60 years ago,
then why wasn’t Moses who lived to 120 a senile old geezer with Alzheimer’s? None of you seem to understand that the WORD of GOD is power. John who is in the shoes of the Prophet, ate the scriptures, which is the Undiluted, raw, pure WORD of GOD – not the bible we have today. The WORD of GOD is Spiritual and life giving. There are Revelations hidden behind every WORD of GOD that one must be Spiritual to understand GOD in HIS height of Communication. This has been the problem throughout all the Church Ages, GOD’s Communication was not accurately interpreted and that is why there are contradictions in the bible.
Holy Men of GOD who are eating the WORD as they eat flesh and blood cannot age, get sick, or die. They tried to boil Apostle John and still he never died. So they exiled him to the island of Patmos, where he received REVELATION about the last days. This has been the message from the beginning. The fruit of the tree of life is the message of GOD.
I hope you understand this.
I don’t understand.
It is not the left brain, right brain, it is the brain of the flesh and can only understand things in a literal sense. There is the mind of the Spirit, which is not the brain and it is by the Spirit whereby our knowledge of the GOD is known to us. My words are Spirit and are life. John 3:16 is in direct contradiction to: 1 John 2:15-17 and James 4:4.
And I would call that a satanistic idea.
Why would god went to down to earth for sacrificed himself to remove our sin when god can remove it without sacrificed himself?
To understand human? And that was a stupid ideas I’ve ever heard. God didn’t need that, he already know human, inside and outside because he’s the creator. Even kids know that.
I don’t know what is in christian’s brain believe such things.
In Deut.32:3-4, the Hebrew Text tells us YHWH is the Rock,and we know the Rock is the Creator, and His work is perfect. I
do not think it matters which one is supposed to be the Rock, or Creator, Father, or son, because I have too ask, is this
Mighty-One really perfect? Do you really think creating beings that grow up to want to lay with their own sex is a perfect
creation? There have been millions of beings created this way through the years before they came out of the closet.
This screams very loudly that there is nothing perfect about Jesus, or Yahweh, I think it shows the Bible is a lie.
We are to read these passages and then presto, everything said above is discredited? Ah, you’re right. Your judicious selection of Biblical passages has turned the tide. I now believe in everything that is written in the Wholly Holey Holy Babble.
Matthew 20:18 -19 read & understand you Muslim website
Oh Brother – Muslim website? You are really daft.
While Mathew does have verses in regards to Jesus crucifixion and his raising after three days, there are no other verses anywhere in regards to him dying for our sins. That’s only in Paul’s single verse. There are many verses in regards to his crucifixion, but can you name a single other verse that actually says that Jesus died for our sins? Any man can claim to have a revelation from God and just write passages that typically agree with some common Christian beliefs all while keeping what they like, removing what they don’t, and adding what they want.
1 Peter 3:18 comes to mind. Pretty clear.
Christ died for the sins of all people. It is the theme throughout the Word of God. Every sacrifice in the Old Testament was a shadow of the coming sacrifice of Christ for the sins of the people.
A ‘technical’ search for a word or phrase, if not found, does not prove something does not exist. For example, you will not find the word, ‘grandpa’ in the Bible, but they are everywhere.
You do not find the phrase, ‘Jesus died for our sins’ in many places, yet there are hundreds of examples that he did in fact do so.
If you don’t want to believe on Christ why not just shrug, look down at the ‘Foolish’ believers and be on your way.
Those verses say nothing about Jesus dying for your sins; not mine – for I have not sinned – ever!
You’ve done s lot of work, but you’ve came up short .
I’m certain you are not of the christian faith . Your words states that .
I’ll suggest you read , in detail both
old snd new testament pertaining to Messiah”purpose . Also read about the blood sacrifice of Christ Jesus .
The scriptures is loaded about this very subject . You can’t take one statement made in scriptures snd make a judgement on anything , especially the purpose that God the father came as man Jesus .
Read the entire scripture genius through revelation , and before you open your mouth and speak ” for out of the mouth the heart speaks ” and read it again .
Now i expect to hear I’ve read it numerous times , okay its obvious you haven’t understood what you’ve read .
Study to show yourself approved to God a workman that needs not to be ashamed , rightly dividing the word of truth .
Study for your soul’s sake .