Watch up to the 30 second mark of this, just for fun.
The Truth Is…
The Bible gives us two versions of the 10 commandments. The first set of “thou shalt nots” that most people mistakenly think are the “10 commandments” were recited by God to Moses, and then from Moses (or from God?, the Bible says God spake) to “them”.
Exodus
19:25 So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.
20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth me..
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9.Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass,nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
So what’s this about? Contradiction already. Moses spake…. No! God spake. None-the-less these “shalt not” commandments were recited by either God or Moses. The words of the conventional wisdom 10 commandments WERE SPOKEN! These “conventional wisdom” 10 commandments were merely spoken. Get it? Spoken! If these words were spoken by God|Moses, who wrote them down? On what? How is it that we have them now? There is nothing about stone tablets in this first narrative. So, we don’t have the stone tablets referred to below but we have the above spoken words ? Not Likely!
BTW – 10th Commandment Condones Slavery
The conventional wisdom 10th commandment is abominable. It equates wives and manservants and maidservants with houses, oxen, asses and any other property that is thy neighbor’s. Wives and slaves are property, no doubt.
The 2nd Version
The next time Moses received the 10 commandments, after 40 days and 40 nights on the mount, There are stone tablets written by “the finger of God”.
32:15 And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.
32:16 And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.
However, Moses dropped and broke the first set of stones writ by the finger of God!. Again we find it interesting that Moses would deign to intentionally break STONES written on by God and suffer no consequence!
32:19 And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses’ anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.
So… we don’t really know what was on those stones; but we are soon going to find out!
Finally, the REAL 10 commandments
34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.
34:4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.
34:10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.
Exodus 34:14-26
1. For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
2. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.
4. But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.
.5. Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.
6. And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year’s end.
7. Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel.
8. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.
9. The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God.
10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother’s milk.
34:27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
Wait a minute! WHO wrote the words? God said “I will write”; this verse says Moses wrote. Another piece of nonsense!
34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he (Moses?) wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Read that carefully. Here is the bible stating in no uncertain terms that the above commandments are the REAL 10 commandments as dictated, (“write thou these words”), by God to Moses.
You didn’t know that did you. There’s a lot in the bible you don’t know.
Lest you believe that this is from an odd-ball translation, read 19 different bible translations HERE . They all say the same thing “…these are the 10 commandments”.
I had a Jewish friend claim that “it only says 10 commandments in the Christian bibles but when you read the Hebrew, it doesn’t say 10 commandments. He was wrong… HERE it is in Hebrew. It says “these are the 10 commandments.
WAIT! WHAT WAS THAT?
This section has been challenged by Mitchell below. He says I am misreading the concept of “redeem” and “consecration”. He is probably correct. But, I am leaving this in. You decide what this nonsense means. It is not absolutely clear to me that you are not to kill your first kid.
You are to sacrifice your first born son to God right along with your ass or a lamb instead of your ass. It says so, right here in Exodus 34:19-20.
All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.
But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.
Lest you think I am misquoting this passage, you are invited to see it represented in 19 different translations in the Bible Hub.
NO…. you did not misread or misunderstand. God makes it clear in other verses that he means you should sacrifice your firstborn son!
Exodus 13:2
“Consecrate to me every firstborn male. The first offspring of every womb among the Israelites belongs to me, whether human or animal.“
Exodus 22:29
“Do not hold back offerings from your granaries or your vats. “You must give me the firstborn of your sons.
“But wait!” my Jewish friend exclaims. “That’s not what it says in the Hebrew” he says. “Yes it is!” we say. Have a look for yourself.
Exodus 34:20 in Hebrew
Exodus 13:2 in Hebrew
Exodus 22:29 in Hebrew
And then of course this is confirmed in Leviticus and Numbers.
Leviticus 27:28-29 Notwithstanding no devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the LORD of all that he hath, both of man and beast, and of the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the LORD. None devoted, which shall be devoted of men, shall be redeemed; but shall surely be put to death.
What gibberish but it appears that something that is first born is surely going to be put to death
Numbers 3:13 Because all the firstborn are mine; for on the day that I smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt I hallowed unto me all the firstborn in Israel, both man and beast: mine shall they be: I am the LORD.
Ahh, much more to the point; all the firstborn in Israel (both man and beast) belong to the LORD, just as they did in Egypt.
Analysis – For Critical Thinkers Only
Whereas the “conventional wisdom” 10 commandments have four, common sense moral prohibitions, the REAL 10 commandments are total, utter and complete nonsense. The real 10 commandments are even less prohibitive of amoral behavior than are those commonly accepted 10 commandments.
So, we have two, maybe three different versions of the 10 commandments. Which one is “true”. One of the versions is wrong and therefore the Bible is wrong. How is it that conventional wisdom gives us the version that was recited (Moses went down and spake/ god spake ) to the Children of Israel? Who wrote them down on what? There never was a written record of those 10 commandments that are now recognized as THE 10 commandments. The first stoney version was broken. There is no question that the bible is wrong on this matter.
Wait, There’s More
There are three radically different accounts of what happened after Moses angrily smashed the tablets containing the 10 commandments when he came down from Mount Sinai. These accounts are well discussed in “What Really Happened After Moses Broke The Tablets?” written by Thomas McDaniel from Palmer Seminary. Briefly, here are the variations:
- According to Exodus 32;20, Moses made the people drink water contaminated with the toxic powder from the ashes of the golden calf, seemingly for the purpose of fatally poisoning all who had worshiped the golden calf. And then he turned brother against brother, neighbor against neighbor. Some loving God what?
- According to Exodus 32:35, God sent a plague upon the people,
- According to Deut 9:21, Moses threw the toxic ashes into a brook so that the waters would carry the ashes into oblivion—without anyone being made to drink a concocted toxic beverage.
Again contradictory stories in the inerrant bible. Can’t be. The Bible is wrong about two of the above fables.
The Most Egregious Contradiction
6. Thou shall not kill.
Pretty clear. God commands us not to kill!
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
And what is the penalty for violating the fourth commandment?
Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. Exodus 35:2
And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. … And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. Numbers 15:32-36
Well isn’t that just peachy! God commands us not to kill but in the next breath commands us to kill anyone who does anything on the Sabbath. Can ANYONE spin this nonsense into sense? I thought not.
Another Example of the Lord Speaking Out of Both Sides of His Wholly Mouth
God told Moses to kill. Even though it was Moses who purposely broke the stones containing the words of God, God wants those who thought Moses was gone forever to be killed.
“And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. Exodus 32:27
OMG – more nonsense. How can anyone believe this rubbish?
These contradictions are all that is needed to prove the bible is wrong. According to God, EITHER one should not kill OR one should kill those who don’t believe you. Apparently it will “bestow a blessing upon you” Ex 32:29 if you do kill. Everyone knows it is wrong to kill. Why can’t the Bible get it right?
Wrong By Hubris
And do you think that prior to hearing Moses recite the commandments, everyone thought that it was OK to commit adultery, murder, theft and perjury? There were already laws against all of those transgression codified by Confucius, Hammurabi and others. Ancient Egyptian Laws from which the Children of Israel had “escaped” were far superior to what God told Moses. By the way, in the next three books of the Pentateuch, God commits, commissions and condones 143 separate instances of rape, murder, infanticide, genocide, slavery and torture.
Wrong By Impossibility
WAIT A MINUTE!
“And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount….And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.” Exodus 34:2-4
“The two tables of stone”. According to the Bava Batra* the length and width of each of the Tablets was six Tefachim, and each was three Tefachim thick – respectively roughly 20 and ten inches. That’s 4000 cubic inches of stone for each tablet! Mount Sinai displays a ring complex[4] that consists of alkaline Granites intruded into diverse rock types, including volcanics. The granites range in composition from syenogranite to alkali feldspar granite. With all that considered, let’s take the middle ground – the weight of the rock in that area then is 3500 pounds per cubic yard.
Therefore, the weight of the one (of the two) rocks that Moses allegedly carried is 300 pounds (4000/46,656 * 3500). Since Moses was carrying TWO stone tablets, the total weight of Moses’ load was 600 pounds! That’s a show stopper right there. We have no indication that Moses had super strength. This is the same old goat who needed help to even hold his arms up so God’s “children” would keep on killing some people.
“Come up in the morning… the top of the mount“. Mount Sinai is over 7400 ft high! At a 4% grade, it would take 34 miles to reach an elevation of 7400 feet. In addition, as Moses climbed higher, the the density of oxygen in the air decreases in direct proportion to increasing altitude. Moses was at least 80 (according to the bible) at this time. No one, let alone an 80 year old, is capable of walking 34 miles up to a 7500 foot elevation with stones weighing over 600 pounds “in his hand”.
Now, about the descent.
Really? After 40 days without food or water? Think about that. Forty days without food or water and yet Moses is able to walk a 34 mile route down from an elevation of 7500 feet with two tables totaling 600 pounds?
No way! It could not happen, it did not happen. This is a man made story by ignorant Jews in the marketing department of The Children of Israel.
WAIT A MINUTE
With what did Moses “write” the 10 commandments? A sharpie? Probably not. Coal? Not in the middle of the desert. Quill pen and India ink? Not invented yet. A chisel! Yeah, that’s it a Stanley chisel purchased from Lowes (or Home Depot). Wait…. chisels only work on wood. The Egyptians shaped stones in the pyramids by pounding rock on rock, but that wouldn’t have worked for Moses because he was etching intricate hieroglyphic (not Greek or Arabic) characters into stone. Hmm … We have no idea how Moses “…wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant”. Don’t say that God wrote them because the last we’re told, Moses is doing the writing. It’s a wonder it only took Moses 40 days. No wonder there was no time for food or water.
WAIT A MINUTE!
Forty days without water? Forty days without food? No one can live for 40 days without water. You can say that God was in charge of allowing Moses to live 40 days without food and water but then what is the big deal? It isn’t even worth mentioning if it’s a God miracle. So, this is just one more show stopper in the 10 commandments fable. Another proof the bible is wrong.
WAIT A MINUTE!
Where is it? A document of stone written by Moses would surely be worth preserving at all costs. Presumably there were two copies of it, albeit one was broken by Moses (why didn’t God kill Moses for breaking the stones that HE had written on? Heck, God had a man killed for collecting sticks on the sabbath). We digress. Yes the temple was destroyed several times over but the stones written on by God and/or Moses surely would have been removed prior to the destruction. The fact that there is no trace of stone written on by God or Moses is a strong indicator that they never existed. Wasn’t the Ark of the Covenant moved around until it was lost?
WAIT A MINUTE!
“To the Children of Israel? Biblical scholars estimate that the size of the Exodus would have been more than 1.5 MILLION (who would have formed an 85 mile long column, 10 abreast, 3 feet between rows) people, the same number of people who live in Philadelphia. How could Moses possibly have communicated with all of them? He couldn’t. He didn’t. Bible is wrong.
Wrong By Omission
The 10 Commandments fail to prohibit atrocities that have been universally recognized throughout the ages as equal to or more heinous than lying, coveting, stealing or murder.
Why are not these the first six commandments ….
- Thou shall not enslave.
- Thou shall not torture.
- Thou shall not kidnap.
- Thou shall not molest children.
- Thou shall not rape women.
- Thou shall not commit genocide (even though I, your Lord, did many times)
Almost universally, people will identify slavery, torture and kidnapping as the most heinous of acts one person can perpetrate on another person.
Why are these heinous acts… slavery, torture, kidnapping, child molestation, rape not included in God’s list of proscribed behaviors?
- Why, instead of “Thou shall not enslave“,
do we have “The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God“? - Why, instead of “Thou shall not torture“,
do we have “Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel.“? - Why, instead of “Thou shall not kidnap“,
do we have “The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.“? - Why, instead of “Thou shall not molest children“,
do we have the opposite “All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.“? i.e. kill your firstborn son. - Why instead of “Thou shall not rape women” do we have
Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother’s milk.
Why are the worst possible crimes against humanity ignored in favor of homage to God? Nowhere in the bible is there any admonishment not to do any of the above barbaric, savage atrocities.
10th Commandment Condones Slavery, Treats Women As Chattel
In the first set of unwritten, “conventional wisdom” 10 commandments, the tenth “commandment” condones behavior we find reprehensible: women are seen as chattel, no different than the house, the oxen and the ass or any other object the neighbor owns. Servitude is condoned and protected (thou shalt not covet ….his manservant, nor his maidservant). In fact slavery is condoned in both the old and new testaments. God even gives instructions on “How To Sell Your Daughter Into Slavery” (Exodus 21:7-8). And yes, we know the New Testament uses the word “servant’ but the behavior described, that is, ownership of another person, is slavery!
A loving god would have included these despicable acts in his prohibitions. So, whether or not you believe the fable of the 10 commandments, you have to see that no truly loving God, wishing the best for his children, would have failed to prohibit the worst kinds of human deprivation. Don’t steal, don’t lie, …. , these are better than don’t molest children?
Summary
We have just provided numerous examples, in just this one story of the 10 commandments, where the bible is in error, e.g. it is wrong! Only one is needed to falsify the bible. Take your pick. All of the examples can withstand any spin the apologists want to apply.
Q.E.D.
* Bava Batra – the third of the three tractates in the Talmud in the order Nezikin.
The Church Of Truth™ 
This is the most grotesque interpretation of the ten commandments I could ever conceive! The tenth commandment enshrine’s the perpetual duty and responsibility of a mans name being that which is a container to house his family and his belongings and as such should not be desired as possession by another. The notion that such a doctrine could represent slavery or other atrocity is simply reading into the thing what you wish to be there and not the truth. A mans name should be known as a thing that represents protection and strength, provisions and duty, and the absolute willingness to both die and kill to defend all those within his charge. Thinking that this means rape or some other horrendous thing is an acceptable or even promoted inclusion is simply preposterous. You really need to do some serious soul searching because you couldn’t be more wrong! The lense you view history is by orders of magnitude out of focus. 5000 years ago cannot be evaluated by the same interpretation of life that exists in 2023. It just doesn’t compute! You need to exercise pure objectivity and evaluate the the world that existed 5000 years ago and realize that, while they are physiologically modern humans, the ideals and contemplations of daily life, were not the same of ours by almost every measure. This was still the transitional period between the stone age and the bronze age and you’re arguing about the semantics of this culture on a website! Are you really a learned individual enough to make such a distinction? Apparently not!
There has never been any real confirmation that ‘God’ is something that cares or loves anyone, and to allow Jesus to go through such torture, unlike any other father would have wanted in such a sacrifice on the part of Jesus. The gospels of women were taken out) but with plenty of info about God’s wrath, jealousy and killings. Also, right from Genesis, (Lilith not mentioned, who was the first woman before Eve, apart from the ‘tribes’ outside of the garden who, were obviously the first humans), the authors, if not ‘God’ him/itself, are very much against women and only think of them as breeding chattel. This alone ought to make Christian women angry, (If they respect themselves) and they certainly should not be compliant or ignoring of this fact. It’s a disgrace and is the main reason I dislike this so-called ‘God,’ even if he does exist. Jesus said in the Bible that Satan was the ruler of this Earth. (So where would God be at this time?)
It does not state in the Bible that Jesus died for the salvation of human lives, nor does it state that the deed was accomplished, even though he was resurrected. Service to others seems not to matter (to be saved), states Paul (a proven liar) that Jesus died for our sins. And what sins anyway? For the ‘original’ sin, when God left temptation in the garden, knowing what would happen, and then condemning us all (innocents to the crime) for disobedience?
Extreme Christians are still singing God’s praises, waiting for a miracle even though it seems that the God in the Old Testament can only be Satan, with all his love for sacrifices and mass murders, not to mention the demand for circumcision, which is a violation of personal space. If God never makes mistakes, and boys are born with their skins intact, why does he demand humans need to chop it off? And wanting the deaths of first newborns? (Was that order ever changed or stopped?) NOW THAT IS HELL on Earth, engineered by an insecure God who constantly seeks adoration, and for WHAT??
In the Bible it states that God gets so angry that he wipes out multitudes and has continued to do so, right up to now. So many constant atrocities continue around the world, black people still being sold in Libya, Muslims buying women to use and discard, honour killings in India, the Uyghurs imprisoned and tortured alive while their organs are cut out, abortions and live babies used for sacrifice and in harvesting, trafficking and torture of children, such horrors around the world, which we can’t eliminate and the obviously satanic God not stopping any of it, (no matter how hard or often we pray and ask him to) when he would be the only one who could stop these atrocities.
Not to mention the ongoing horror the Chinese and Koreans live with. Dolphins, whales, baby seals, etc killed or clubbed to death, yet, Christians are still saying they worship this ‘God’ who is so accepting of horrific evil. All of that is the real abomination, which makes it easy to accept that the perception of Christians toward a ‘merciful, compassionate, loving’ God, is seriously misconstrued. His traits in the Bible say he is an angry, jealous God (and mass murderer) and who is totally undeserving of any worship. It can only be through fear of what will happen to them, that ‘Christians’ continue to fawn over him, when, if they actually read their Bible, or knew of the horrific treatment toward living creatures (that includes humans) they would instead be rebuking him and asking why he is so negligent and cruel.
His traits in the Bible say he is an angry, jealous God. He is totally undeserving of any worship. It can only be through fear of what will happen to them, that ‘Christians’ continue to fawn over him, when, if they actually read their Bible, or knew of the horrific treatment toward living creatures (that includes humans) Surely, they would instead be rebuking him and asking why he is so negligent and cruel. Even our biological fathers have better traits and would never allow their children to be so mistreated, but instead would attempt to protect and nurture them. But, whom we think of as ‘Father God’ or our Creator does not show any concern.
The ‘Source’ as he is also called, has been said to think evil and good are much the same, and are experiences we all need. I think not. We automatically have empathy, and the one important ‘commandment’ ought to be ‘to do no deliberate harm to living creatures’. It covers everything. Unless someone is a psychopath, this is the rule we ought to all live by. The Bible God often states, if he is not revered, those guilty of this ‘sin’ is killed. (Or, stated in the Bible, be stoned to death)
We have never really had free-will. Choosing to do good above any evil deeds, does not have to be a choice, ever. It is simply wrong and we don’t need to see or hear bad things done, to know how wrong and hurtful they can be. We should have a conscience to keep us on the right path. Empathy is supposed to be a natural human thing, but that trait along with compassion, is not something God has.
We know of the deceit in the medical system, and recently with the Covid gene-splicing software injections forced on so many along with the extreme global tyranny. Innocent children also being killed as usual. It has become as bad as it can possibly get with this global depopulation now. I see no mercy or help from above, do you? It’s said to be a satanic war, so why is God losing it? We don’t have any special powers to fight such a war. And again, humanity is suffering greatly, maybe to be wiped out this time.
Why do Christians love this God so much? Are they doing the same as the North Koreans, who smile and fawn over their leader out of fear of the consequences if they don’t? Their worshipping can’t be out of love or gratitude and yet they accept the persecution of millions to continue without admonishing their God for it? That can be done with respect and such honesty might even be appreciated by God who then might treat us better.
Great article! I think it’s obvious to any critical thinker that the bible we are given is a complete manipulation used to serve a select few at the expense of the many. Divide, control, rule….still prolific in today’s society, only now they are using other means to create fear and force compliance.
Be careful not to let it turn you away from a spiritual life and a moral and ethical path. They’re will always be charlatans who try to dissuade us.
Could not agree more. It’s a horrible book that brought unparalleled misery to mankind and destroyed faith and spirituality on the way. Whole human history would have been different if humanity would have been presented with a different kind of god and ideas
Wow! This is incredible material. I can’t believe that I just so happened to have stumbled upon your most detailed and outrageous evidence which unequivocally shows the Bible to be a fictitious piece of marketing propaganda.
And this comes at a time when I am attempting to complete the writing of a play titled “The World Court vs. The Lord thy God”, all of which centers on the story (fable) called the Exodus and the crimes against Humanity.
Feel free to contact me.
He who is under the law is under a curse
The firstborn must be redeemed by sacrifice. The firstborn is the namesake, the recorded lineage. Remove this spirit of dissent from your heart.
The commandments of Exodus 20 and Deut. 5 are the “Ethical Decalogue”- this was the list of religious and moral rules/guidelines.
The commandments of Exodus 34 are the “Ritual Decalogue”- the list of ritual rules. (More so/only for the Israelite’s/Old Covenant).
The 2nd set of commandments (Exodus 34) were needed after the incident/story of the golden calf. In other words, it was needed to command greater focus on worshiping God and staying away from idolatry.
From a Christian standpoint, neither are much of anything- as the Old Testament/Old Covenant was only between God and the Israelites- but as far as the “10 Commandments” go, that would be the ones in Exodus 20 and Deut. 5 (the first set).
This amount of ignorance I’ve had to endure, reading these incoherent explanations…….. Just wow.
No friend, unfortunately the Bible does not condone child sacrifices. Nor, are Christians bound by the Old Covenant (the Old Testament), so this discussion is pointless anyway.
But to better help you understand how misguided you are:
#1- The OT does not say to sacrifice the first born son.
#2- The Exodus 22:29-30 verses only explain the “when” to be carried out, not the “how” it should be carried out.
#3- For the “how” it should be carried out, you need to read Exodus 13:12-13.
#4- Once you read Exodus 13:12-13 (and this is also repeated in Exodus 34:20), the “redeem” or “consecrate” is an ANIMAL SACRIFICE.
#5- This animal sacrifice was to take the place (to save the Israelites children- the animal goes instead of the child)….. Unlike the first born Egyptian child.
A 2nd grader could figure that out.
I could honestly reply to each of your inaccurate links. You are extremely ignorant in relation to Christian Theology.
BG, so you think it okay to ‘redeem’ a firstborn by sacrificing an animal? That is still satanic and CRUEL. It doesn’t make the event any better, and breaking a living creature’s or a being’s neck is disgusting!
Do you believe honestly that we should hold animals to the same standard as human beings, no, cause if a species is incapable of morality then it in turn does not fall under moral action. We act kind to animals not because they are moral entities but rather because if we didn’t we would be instilling bad habits that could influence our moral actions to actual moral entities, Humans.
Thoroughly enjoyed this article. Delivered with sharp wit. Sometimes the author tends to stretch text out of context, ie literally killing your firstborn, but in reality it was there to a certain degree as an ancient underlying cultic belief.
This article will cause much pain to some but its intent is to wake you up.
Thanks for the kudos. But, I am not stretching text out of context; “literally killing your firstborn “.
How do you come to any other conclusion after reading this passage: “Numbers 3:13 Because all the firstborn are mine; for on the day that I smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt I hallowed unto me all the firstborn in Israel, both man and beast: mine shall they be: I am the LORD.”?
Here God is explicitly equating his killing of firstborn in Egypt (never happened) with all the firstborn in Israel.
God himself killed his firstborn son! (never happened).
Case closed.
The Truth… if only…
The world is a big cesspool of manipulation that is riddled with lies so that some men may control the majority. I believe in God not because of a book but because of the experiences in my life that has made him real for me. If you want the truth you only have to look inward to your heart. Even the most psychotic mass murderers know deep in their hearts what they are doing is wrong. If something makes you happy and doesn’t hurt others or yourself then it is “good” and may no man tell you otherwise. It’s that simple…that is the simple truth.
You don’t need a bible or a religion you just need a heart and you must be honest with yourself and others about how you are feeling. Make sure to question yourself. Is what you are feeling your true feelings or the ones that are programmed into your brain by society? People in one part of the world feel completely different about exact situations than people in other parts of the world. Be honest with yourself! Do you think it is good or bad or are you just following those in your environment.
Love is so powerful and amazing but we put such limitations on it in our unloving society. Love has nothing to do with money or sex but they are often grouped together. The view of love is so skewed with selfish and jealous thoughts that 99% of the population will never experience true love and most who do will only experience it with a Mother, Father, or Child. Marriage should be the realization of true love as two become one, but in today’s society people want to control, judge, and ridicule their spouse which makes love fade away very quickly.
Sex is an amazing feeling that can be completely different and new with each different partner(50% of you just gasped). It makes you feel great, it keeps you healthy and young looking, it is one of the easiest ways to get to the feeling of love which of course is better than sex. Yet we have such limitations and stigmas concerning sex in society many people live their entire lives without really experiencing it.
Stop debating about what other people have said or what they want you to believe and start looking to your own heart for the truth that will make you happy forever!
The truth is…energy cannot be created or destroyed so therefore your consciousness (soul if you prefer) will never die and it will only change form. If you do good things and make sure you and others are happy around you, you will be rewarded in that future form. That is all you need to remember, that truth is all you need to move on. Be honest and truthful, love as many people as you can, spread joy and laughter at every opportunity whether it be through words or actions and you WILL be great!
MURDER! Thou shalt not murder! Everybody kills including you or participates in the fruits of killings. What else so fundamental are u missing? Salem, JK
The Lord reminds us that a true believer will hear his voice. Jesus said my sheep will hear my voice. So basically we are to go to the Lord for discernment, wisdom from him not from man. So this person is twisting the bible up and causing confusion. Satan is the author of confusion, …he comes to steal, kill and destroy, his goal is to make everyone doubt the written word, his goal is to make everyone doubt their faith in the Lord. I pray that everyone including the author of this nonsense will seek out the Lord with an open heart and mind so that you will be given the truth and understanding of his written word. Our understanding should come from the Lord, not from man. Man can plant the seed but we have the obligation to show they self approved by doing our own research and asking God for his help to find the truth. May the Lord Bless you all in your journey for the truth.
I did do all you suggest… “doing our own research and asking god for his help..” and this is what I came up with.
The word Jesus was not created until 1611 ! So that in its self makes the bible a fake ! The word LORD and GOD are titles , not the names of any one and are loosely used . What lord are you talking about ? What god are you talking about ? There are many different types of lords and gods . The ROMANS and ROMAN CATHOLIC CRISTIAN VATICAN wrote the BIBLE that is out there now . The KHAZARIANS infiltrated and CAPTURED the ROMAN EMPIRE along with the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHRISTIAN RELIGION and VATICAN . People should really study the history behind all this deception of the bible . The Jesus story is a myth and all about astrology . 12 other religions use the same Jesus story prior to this Jesus story and they are all the basic same story . The documentary ” ZEITGEIST ” explains it all very well ! The new testament is a repeat of the old testament if you study it closely . Names and places are changed but a lot of it is the same story script . The humans involved with writing the bible were very intelligent about manipulation and brainwashing because they wrote it in such a manner that any non-believer would be deemed an evil , bad and sinner person and it put that fear in people . WOW , what the hell kind of good god would do that ? And on top of all that , Religions have been the number one cause of human genocide and destruction of Humanity ! I am of Native American blood and the RELIGIOUS GENOCIDE forced upon the Native American Ancestors killing off over 60 million is a GIANT SIN and the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHRISTIAN RELIGION is RESPOSIBLE for all that EVIL DEATH ! WOW , I wonder what kind of good God would do that ? From the ROMAN EMPIRE GENOCIDE to the MID EVIL DAYS GENOCIDE to the NATIVE AMERICAN GENOCIDE to the WORLD WIDE GENOCIDE of today all done in the name of religions ! All Roads Lead To ROME ! Watch the Documentary ” CAESERS MESSIAH , THE INVENTORS OF THE JESUS STORY ” . Of course Christians do want to believe the truth , even if it slapped them along side the head and they justify the bible with the bible because that is what they have been brainwashed to believe via FEAR , DECEPTION , PROPAGANDA and MANIPULATION ! I SEEK THE TRUTH , I LEARN THE TRUTH , I SPEAK THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH SETS ME FREE !!!! NO B.S. RELIGION WILL EVER MIND CONTROL ME !
Loved this article!
Thanks so much for clarifying my concerns. I do not understand so many errors in a book everyone reads and so little understand.
we can’t possibly know what the true Bible says, it’s been changed hundred of times, we can’t really know if god, Jesus, lord or father are good words, the Hebrews were forced to write the Bible the way there masters wanted it to be, the 1st thing they would have changed is god’s name the second holly day and the 3rd try to make God sound like a tyrant, the true Bible lies in the hands of those who don’t want us to see it.
Also people translate Hebrew but the Hebrews were forced to write in Babylonian Hebrew with does not translate the same, the Hebrews went into Greece and Greece formed their language around that, so Greek, would be a closer translation to Aramaic Hebrew.
That part of the Bible that contains the “real” commandments was unfortunately not cited by you. It is in Matthew 22, verses 35-40 and in Luke 10, verses 25-28. Any other rule of human behavior that is incompatible with those verses is wrong – whether it is in the Bible or not.
Sure. it’s so convenient to make it abstract:”love”. But you’re deceiving yourself. “Love”, as mentioned in the Bible, IS DEFINED IN THE BIBLE, not elsewhere. You read the quotes from the New Testament backwards. The New Testament operates with the definitions of the Old Testament. Matthew 22, 25-28 is a summary, not a replacement. It says that the first 4 Commandments define the love of God and the rest 6 define the love of neighbors. Otherwise, without definitions of the terms used, the verses from New Testament are useless. We don’t know what pure, divine love is. Jesus and His disciples based their affirmations on the Scripture, which at that time, was the Old Testament. And BTW, all the Ten Commandments are mentioned in the New Testament.
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“Love” is respect for and due regard to the divinity of God and all of his creation. The commandments to love God and to love our neighbors as ourselves means to respect all of creation. Respecting all of creation is only possible if one does not defile it by requiring others to give up their free will actions that do not harm others.
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True, it’s a summary. But, it’s also a powerful limit on what is required of everyone for right behavior. It eliminates every dogma which may be incompatible with it because “all the law and the prophets hang on it.” Petty tyrants and their followers hate that because they can’t deceive others into believing there is some other “law” that must be complied with (which invariably violate the free will of others and are thus invalid).
Enjoyed your writing and I feel the same. Thanks so much.
Why is it nobody ever points out how the writers of the bible even got it wrong in Deuteronomy 5. The fictional character Moses lies about what was written on the stone tablets. I’m amazed nobody catches that
I am amazed you don’t see how ridiculous you are.
Read the first verse of Exodus 34:1 And the Lord said to Moses,“Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write on these tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you broke…
Exodus 34:4 So he cut two tablets of stone like the first ones. Then Moses rose early in the morning and went up Mount Sinai, as the Lord had commanded him; and he took in his hand the two tablets of stone.
5 Now the Lord descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Yahovah. 6 And Yahovah passed before him and proclaimed, “Yahovah, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abounding in goodness and keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children’s children to the third and the fourth generation.”
Yahovah, is reestablishing (RENEWING) his covenant with the Hebrews after Mosha (Moses) bows down and worships Yahovah and says to Yahovah in Exodus 34:8 So Moses made haste and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshiped. 9 Then he said, “If now I have found grace in Your sight, O Yahovah, let my Lord, I pray, go among us, even though we are a stiff-necked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us as Your inheritance.”
Exodus 34:10 And Yahovah said: “Behold, I make a covenant. Before all your people I will do marvels such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation; and all the people among whom you are shall see the work of Yahoval. For it is an awesome thing that I will do with you. Observe what I command you this day.
The new ten commands you say are the new set of tablets, with a revised version of the original set, are really the same as the first as it states in Verse 1 of Exodus 34:1
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Yahovah, the god of the Hebrews, is instructing Mosha what to do in the following verses by paraphrasing the contents of the original ten commands. (which is what jesus was doing for the father when he was here) The creator of the heavens and the earth is reflecting a direct nature of the original ten commands by the instructions he is giving Mosha. The creator is reestablishing the covenant that the Hebrews broke with their corruption (the golden calf and everything else they did) after they had been sprinkled with blood and had agreed to do all that Yahovah said to do. It was a blood covenant and that means death to the breaker of the covenant. They had to die to be saved by the agreement of the covenant (the contract). In addition, much of the temple service reflects a debt that has not been paid for and Yahovah pardoned them, however, he did not let them in the promised land and they all died in the wielderness. This is the reason for the added 613 instructions and much of all the works of the temple service as a picture of the comming messiah whom will pay for the debt that was owed by the breaking of the covenant and renewing the covenant anew all over again. Thus, we have a renewed covenant not a new testament or a new doctrine. Not one jot or one tittle shall pass away from his word. Yahoshua (you call him jesus) came to establish the Father’s kingdom and the gospel of the original gospel with an account of that prophet that Mosha was instructed by Yahovah to say to the people when he does come to hear him. This account (testimony) of Yahoshua, that people call the new testament, is an account that illustrates and reveals the original intent to save mankind… Hebrew scholars that read Yahoshua’s account say that he teaches the original writings by all his actions and what he speaks without the rules and laws of men that were added to the original. So in a nutshell, Yahoshua (jesus) is teaching Torrah and not a new anything. He speaks what the father says to speak. He has the Torrah to speak of to his disciples and to the people; not a new testament to teach in his time frame that people call today, that gospel, the new testament. It is called new to replace the old man made gospel that inflicted the people. It is an account so to reveal the hidden nature of the original intent that was hid or kept mysterious and secretive from the people with eyes and ears that cannot see or hear the true meaning of the gospel. When Mosha, at that smiting of the Rock, failed to declare the Rock (speak to rock and declare the rock that followed them) thus the coming of our savior was like a thief in the night and was not made known openly to the Israelis. His coming would be affected by Mosha failing to do what Yahovah explicitly said to do. If you follow the timeline of the bible you’d see a breakdown of the original plan A to plan B and then C and so on… this is indicateve that our actions will effect and hinder the Creator of the heavens and the earth from helping us and make reveal his true identity to a lost world walking in the wide gate (religion) and not the narrow gate (the path that leads to life). The Narrow Gate is the only path there is and few are they that will find it.
Wish I could tighten this big paragraph some more and more details about scripture, but I have school homework to do. So! If you can’t get it then you just won’t… Yet, its really simple to understand, nothing to hard it, its just that easy, easy as pi.
Read the first verse of Exodus 34:1 And the Lord said to Moses,“Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write on these tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you broke.
Part of the problem here is a misunderstanding of what the 10 commandments were to the Israelites and a the second comes from misunderstanding what the commandments mean. Even if you don’t believe them, understanding the historical context behind them helps.
The ten commandments as most Christians understand them to be in Exodus 20 were given as part of the Mosaic law which was the lesser law given to the children of Israel as they had shown they were unwilling to live the higher law at that time. This law was supposed to prepare them for the higher law which the Messiah (Christ) would give them at his coming (think learning to walk before you run. If you can’t love each other then at least don’t kill each other). When Christ came he showed them the higher law which many rejected. Now not only were they not supposed to kill, but they should pray for their enemies. Now not only should they not commit adultery, but they should not even have impure thoughts. This is misunderstood by much of the world as they think the 10 commandments are obsolete and out dated (sort of true as we should live the higher law), but they fail to keep them themselves as so look for reasons to scoff at them to justify themselves. The Mosaic law contained many items that seem draconic and absurd to those who are not extremely well versed in ancient Hebrew and Jewish culture, but all of the rituals and rules were in a similitude of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and were designed to point the people back to him as to prepare the culture for the coming Christ. Remember, these are the people who had just spent the last few hundred years in the service to the Egyptian gods and it was going to take a while to turn them back to their God.
Many people do not understand the commandments, especially the first few as given in Exodus 20.
1-2 talk about not having other Gods. How many problems would be solved by people giving up the worship of money, sex, drugs, or power? If you don’t like the word worship then substitute the word obsessive pursuit.
3 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. Probably the most misunderstood of the commandments, this commandment while referring to speech means much more than having clean language. The taking of the name of the Lord refers to the strongest oath one could take back in the day. How many of us break contracts, marriages, and covenants in general. Would not the world be a much better place if people kept their words and we could actually trust one another? Wouldn’t the world be a much better place if marriages held together and children were raised by a mother and a father?
Most of the rest of the commandments do not need as much explanation. Hope this comment clears up some of the misconceptions surrounding these commandments.
How dare you…Any of you…Presume to know the mind of God!
Lmao….your completely off your rocker.
in addition, I haven’t read all this yet, but over the decades of my experience and that of others who have written on bible contradictions, all contradictions resolve into the following:
mistranslation, scribal error, nuancing that is misunderstood by the reader/complainer, changes at God’s orders to deal with changed circumstances, and failure to understand that what is done at God’s order or spoken, whatever is said to be done by God like a king is said
to build a city because it was built at his order but he never did a lick of work on it in person.
you got several things confused and gag on gnats also YOU ARE WRONG that God said to sacrifice your firstborn son YOU LEFT OUT THE FOLLOWING WORDS THAT YOU ARE TO REDEEM THE FIRSTBORN YOU HAVE DEDICATED TO GOD. The Ten Commandments have two versions Exodus and Deuteronomy and the second version you give going into other laws is not the same as the Ten but the start of the recitation of the entire 618 commandments of which the ten are the essence of one or another.
the no images is a part of the no other gods, since God ordered cherubim images to be on the veils of the Tabernacle, and two carved cherubim over the Ark of the Covenant, and the tenth splits into two not covet wife AND not covet the rest, these being the mental sins that can lead to two different physical sins, adultery and theft.
Because protestants quote Exodus and Roman Catholics quote the Deuteronomy and these Bible only people don’t know the Bible very well, or only segmentally and out of context, the Protestants accuse RC of changing the ten commandments.
Need to remember that wisdom and truth were never contained in one book. It was recorded in many writings. Man put it in one book, or so he thought. Hence the instructions of seek and ye shall find and knock and the door shall be opened to you. The rules,as I prefer to call them, where given to man long before Mosses and possibly hidden on purpose from many. After all, if I control the info, I control the world right.
A mouse and a rocket , what type of inane retort is that . There are many stories of the ancient world the Christ myth is taken from , Marduk is one .
How did you figure which is taken from which, dear genius?
The Truth… if only…
The world is a big cesspool of manipulation that is riddled with lies so that some men may control the majority. I believe in God not because of a book but because of the experiences in my life that has made him real for me. If you want the truth you only have to look inward to your heart. Even the most psychotic mass murderers know deep in their hearts what they are doing is wrong. If something makes you happy and doesn’t hurt others or yourself then it is “good” and may no man tell you otherwise. It’s that simple…that is the simple truth.
You don’t need a bible or a religion you just need a heart and you must be honest with yourself and others about how you are feeling. Make sure to question yourself. Is what you are feeling your true feelings or the ones that are programmed into your brain by society? People in one part of the world feel completely different about exact situations than people in other parts of the world. Be honest with yourself! Do you think it is good or bad or are you just following those in your environment.
Love is so powerful and amazing but we put such limitations on it in our unloving society. Love has nothing to do with money or sex but they are often grouped together. The view of love is so skewed with selfish and jealous thoughts that 99% of the population will never experience true love and most who do will only experience it with a Mother, Father, or Child. Marriage should be the realization of true love as two become one, but in today’s society people want to control, judge, and ridicule their spouse which makes love fade away very quickly.
Sex is an amazing feeling that can be completely different and new with each different partner(50% of you just gasped). It makes you feel great, it keeps you healthy and young looking, it is one of the easiest ways to get to the feeling of love which of course is better than sex. Yet we have such limitations and stigmas concerning sex in society many people live their entire lives without really experiencing it.
Stop debating about what other people have said or what they want you to believe and start looking to your own heart for the truth that will make you happy forever!
The truth is…energy cannot be created or destroyed so therefore your consciousness (soul if you prefer) will never die and it will only change form. If you do good things and make sure you and others are happy around you, you will be rewarded in that future form. That is all you need to remember, that truth is all you need to move on. Be honest and truthful, love as many people as you can, spread joy and laughter at every opportunity whether it be through words or actions and you WILL be rewarded now and beyond!
Let me point out a factor. THE 10 COMMANDMENTS is of God and it is EXACTLY the same at his throne in the same order. NOT the one you refer to but that which is recorded in scripture in that order and repeated many times.
Cherry picking from the OT is a common Christian practice to sidestep the barbarity of “God’s commands” and actions in the OT. If it’s all in biblically, God is a maniacal monster. If it’s all out, it’s goodbye to the creation myth, ten commandments and the prophesies. I have yet to hear a plausible explanation regarding the startling contradiction of the two, very different versions of the hallowed 10 Commandments. Exodus 34:28 makes the contradiction crystal clear
Melc, read my detailed explanation that can bring some light in your confused brain and not only yours. The contradiction is only in your mind.
There are hundreds of biblical contradictions, emanual. Trying to believe them all would be confusing, but I choose not to believe without evidence and proof. I’ll have a look for your clarification, but the contradiction regarding the 10 commandments is clear and I trust you’ll shed your light on Exodus 34:28. The fact that the Bible is written by men, not god, and is a corrupted work with no original manuscripts and thousands of textural variants and errors amongst the existing manuscripts (which are all copies, of copies, of copies) remains a fact.
Because you were lazy and didn’t want to check what I already posted, here below about the imaginary contradiction regarding the 10 commandments. Maybe the scriptures contain some contradictions, extremely few, comparing with the amount of text, no more than the contradictions found in 2 media channels transmitting the same event today. In any case I have seem some of the claimed hundreds of contradictions which in fact are not contradictions, but the rudimentary abilities of understanding simple text might lead to the appearence of contradictions.
Exodus 34:1 :”The LORD said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and *I will write* on themTHE WORDS THAT WERE WRITTEN ON THE FIRST TABLET, which you broke.”
If we have to solve the “mystery” of the 10/17 commandments, your speculation doesn’t stand up.
Take it logically and chronologically. You THINK that the commandments of the covenant are the ones from Exodus 34. If we count these commandments , they are 17, so they cannot be the 10 commandments written on the tables.
Time after that (because chronologically what is in deut. is after exodus), we have the following:
In Deut. 5 we have a listing of the REAL 10 commandments followed by:
Deut. 5:22: “These are the commandments the LORD proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. *Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.*”
In this moment we can say, these are not the 10 commandments of the covenant, but in Deut. 10:4-5 we have:
*The LORD wrote on these tablets what he had written before, the Ten Commandments he had proclaimed to you on the mountain, out of the fire, on the day of the assembly. And the LORD gave them to me. Then I came back down the mountain and put the tablets in the ark I had made, as the LORD commanded me, and they are there now.*
So there is no doubt that the 10 commandments are the 10 written on the second tables and there is no doubt that these are the commandments of the covenant, because *that is why Moses mentioned the he put them in the ark of the covenant*. The supposed 17 commandments written on the tables are obviously some more rules that God told in addition, when *He* wrote the 10 on the second tables as He said in Exodus 34:1 (before the 17 “commandments” falsely supposed by you as being the commandments of the covenant):
“The LORD said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and *I will write* on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.”,
so consistent with Deut. 10:4-5, while for 17 “commandments” God asked Moses to write them down in Exodus 34:27:
“Then the LORD said to Moses, *Write down these words*, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”
And finally, after your supposed 17 of the covenant, at the end of telling these 17 rules, it is written, in Exodus 34:28:
“And the LORD wrote the terms of the covenant–*the Ten Commandments*–on the stone tablets.”
which is 100% consistent with what Moses declares later in Deuteronomy.
Only considering this statement, it shouldn’t be much thinking effort for you to understand that the 10 cannot be the 17
While you were busy posting your quick reply (accusing me of being lazy), emanuel, I was doing exactly what I said I’d do and did read your previous response. At least you were provided with another opportunity to proselytize and flaunt your extraordinary knowledge and ability to read basic text. Using the bible to justify itself is sheer folly. As there appear to be (I’m not a biblical scholar) thousands of contradictions, errors and omissions in the various bible translations compared to extant manuscripts, it is an unreliable source. Here are a few of them with links to the source. Don’t be lazy like me and read through them.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/101_bible_contradictions.htm
http://infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html
More importantly, here’s a lecture by Dr. Bart Ehrman, a well known and respected NT scholar. I expect his credentials and biblical knowledge surpass even yours. I strongly encourage you to take and hour and half break from posting here to watch it then post your response to it here, (and directly to Dr. Ehrman should you find he is in error).
I did check as I said I would emanuel, but it took longer than the hour you allowed before your re-posting and accusation that I was “too lazy” to check. The pompous hubris that you exhibit in many of your replies doesn’t encourage me to wait anxiously for your next offering. Perhaps you haven’t read the mission statements about this site and feel compelled to proselytize and gift your truths to the “confused brains” of the unenlightened. I’ve added the link and suggest you educate yourself about the stated purpose of this forum.
To free people of all faiths from the tyranny of their religion
To stamp out the ignorance that leads to the tyranny of religion.
To reveal universal truths supported by irrefutable evidence.
To free people from the articles of “faith” that prevent them from seeing the truth.
https://thechurchoftruth.org/our-mission/
To free people of all faiths? But that’s an irony coming from you, you are very religious and have big faith that your myths in which you blindly believe are true….
It didn’t “come from me”, emanuel. It’s part of the mission statement for this forum. I assume the rest is an ill fated attempt at sarcasm as I’m neither religious nor a believer in myths (which you failed to identify). Just to be clear, I do not believe in the existence of any deities. How about you?
Well, unlike you, I have no belief. Why did you feel the need to tell me that you are atheist? Do you thing that so far you were very subtle in showing that?
Well, unlike you, I have no belief. Why did you feel the need to tell me that you are atheist? Do you thing that so far you were very subtle in showing that?
Thats why we have New Testament…the teachings of JESUS CHRIST…. and we CATHOLICS suppose to FOLLOW HIS TEACHINGS SPREAD THROUGH THE CHURCH…. WE DONOT FOLLOW MOSES’s teachings OR THE OLD TESTAMENTs’. Old testaments r records of facts how everything started, how we came to know about one God, who were the chosen ones and how things went wrong in understanding the concept of life. If we by God’s wish had to follow only 10 commandments moreover THE OLDTESTAMENTS then there was no need of Jesus Christ to take birth and resurrect.
The Catholics and Roman Catholics can best be compared to the Flintstones, not because of age but because their priests continue to have a Gay old time.
It looks like their are lots of them, ray. And this is only the cases reported, from one church, in one country. These self righteous, hypocritical perverts do not deserve a Get Out of Hell card from God (if there is one). As there isn’t a Hell, may they rot in a tiny prison cell for decades with a brutal, hardcore Atheist as a cellmate.
http://bishop-accountability.org/priestdb/PriestDBbylastName-A.html
As every bible thumper will tell you, the ten commandments are only those selected out or well over 100 commandments. The rest of the commands would not appeal to women at all.
Actually……there are just over 600 commandments.
I am appauled by the extent of perversion and inexactitude now~adays upon the ten commandments…widespread..
Is it a wonder the golden rule was broken?💀😇😣
I am appauled by the extent of perversion and inexactitude now~adays upon the ten commandments…widespread..
Is it a wonder the golden rule was broken?💀😇😣where can one find the real 10 commandments anymore!!!!!??????💔👣💨
Which 10 commandments? This well written article makes if clear that the “real” 10 are in Exodus 34 as verified in verse 34:28.
Melc, all your statements sound stupid. The 10 commandments are clear for anyone owning a brain and being able to comprehend simple text. You obviously have never read the scriptures, you prefer to hear from a third party what is written in a book than doing the minimal effort to check that book
Thanks for stepping in on behalf of catherine, emanuel. I have read much of the bible including Exodus 34 from three different versions, not third party as you’ve assumed. They all clearly state the Exodus 34 contain the Ten Commandments, one of the myriad of contradictions in the bible. My brain works very well thank you. It is skeptical, rational and perceptive. It does not accept myths like those presented in the bible (and other “holy” books) as truth, facts or history. Although there are certainly some allegorical truths in all “holy books”, there are much more eloquent, clear and concise truths available for those who haven’t stopped looking for answers because they believe they found them. The writings and lectures of Carl Sagan, Eckart Tolle, Richard Dawkins and Bart Ehrman, to name a few, provide clear, well researched information without the dogmatism and supernatural deities. I’m sure that rational thought is often interpreted as “stupid” by those who beliefs are challenged by rational thinking “non-believers”.
BTW, your self righteous hubris is evident as is your quick judgement. I’d guess that I’ve read more scripture than the average Christian. Your statement that I “obviously have never read the scriptures” is dead wrong. I’ve read enough, including the history of the bible and the rise of Christianity, to know both are man made, corrupted and plagiarized from earlier myths.
Please put here the myth from were Exodus and the whole story told in the Torah are plagiarized. And put here the myth by which the gospel of Jesus is inspired, to show me that I was wrong when I said that you have no idea about the scriptures and to show me that scriptures’ stories are plagiarized from “earlier myths”
Holy Smokes emanuel. For someone frequently ranting about the importance of education and bragging about your own, this information is easy to access (but challenging to process with a closed mind). It should take a couple of hours to read the following links and confirm their veracity. A quick reply will confirm that you didn’t take the time to read them thoroughly and are simply a troll and/or someone unwilling to have their beliefs challenged. Perhaps others will find the information valuable though. As you’ve made it clear that yours is the superior intellect to mine, here’s a variety of sources that are not my own.
https://ashraf62.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/hebrew-bible-plagiarized-mythology-and-defaced-monotheism/
https://danielmiessler.com/blog/the-bible-is-fiction-a-collection-of-evidence/
http://www.nairaland.com/112284/part-bible-straight-egyptian-mythology/1
For someone who regularly disparages others for their lack of education, emanuel, this information is easy to find. If you reply within a few hours, it will be evident that you didn’t take the time to read the information you’ve requested and are a troll that has no interest in truth . It’s from a variety of sources that essentially confirm one another and not my “uneducated opinion”.
Apologies in advance if there’s a duplicate post. First one didn’t appear.
http://www.nairaland.com/112284/part-bible-straight-egyptian-mythology/1
https://danielmiessler.com/blog/the-bible-is-fiction-a-collection-of-evidence/
http://gphhawkinsrationalistsociety.weebly.com/is-the-bible-plagiarized.html
I’ve made three attempts to provide the information you requested, emanuel. I assume they failed to post because of the links I included. However, you can easily do what I did. Search “plagiarized bible” and/or “plagiarized Exodus”. You’ll find a number of well researched sources.
Be imaginative, sweetie. Use spaces. If I search for ‘plagiarized Exodus” for instance I find only forums written by idiots like you, full with claims, but nothing to support their claims, that’s not really a “source”. Point me to the original source of Exodus, put it here!
I see the last one posted. You can also search “Jesus myth” or “plagiarized Jesus” if you’re serious about education. And if you are, we shouldn’t see a reply for sometime as there is much information to read and absorb on these topics. Should you reply quickly, you’ll be verifying you’re just another troll, here to sling insults and slurs at anyone who disagrees with you.
I will come back to you with this “Jesus plagiarized”, for the moment put here the original of Exodus. And by the way, real education is in school, idiot, you certainly missed it, otherwise you couldn’t believe the silly myths you believe. So, original of Exodus, show it!
Now that’s funny!! While I was typing my follow up comment, you posted yours a mere 9 minutes later and seconds before I posted. The obvious problem is that, a pompous ass like yourself believes everyone but himself is an idiot, as you stated……..”If I search for ‘plagiarized Exodus” for instance I find only forums written by idiots like you”. It must be incredibly frustrating to be so brilliant while surrounded by people with inferior intellect.
You’ve provided the troll verification and I will disengage with you (although I might submit a brief reply if you post something overly condescending or ignorant). My “better things to do than spar with you” list now includes mowing the grass, cleaning the toilet and other mundane activities. Would you mind posting a video of yourself celebrating the defeat of yet another “idiot” for all of us to watch? Here are a couple of suggestions…. Big high fives with yourself alone in a room. A few WHOO HOO’s and fist pumps for your imagined victory over the dark forces of ignorance. A slow pan over the multiple degrees and awards you’ve earned to date. A short interview with of few of your many admirers, including your parents if they’re still alive. Let your brilliance shine!!
Do you think the author of this forum is an idiot? How many of the posters here do you classify as idiots? Why would someone with your superior intellect and education spend your valuable time here? Why don’t you use the time you spend/waste here to write your own blog so people won’t have to settle for those written by idiots?
Remember, he who posts last wins. I suggest you take more than your usual couple of minutes to compose something worthy of your extraordinary talent, not just one of your grade school slurs or throwbacks. I have to go mow the grass now, but will leave you with a few idioms (did you educate yourself about them yet?) that could be incorporated into the title and tagline of your blog.
Someone who thinks the sun shines out their ass
Someone who thinks their sh*t don’t stink.
Up his own a** with a stepladder
To put on/ give oneself airs
To be/ get too big for one’s boots
To be/ get too big for one’s britches
To get a swelled head
To have one’s nose in the air
All booster, no payload.
All crown, no filling.
All foam, no beer.
to have a big head
he’s an arrogant pr*ck
to treat people as if they were below oneself
I am very little interested in your inane babbling, idiot. Put here the “original” of Exodus!
The well written article to which you refer is only that, well written. It is also misunderstanding riddled and erroneous. Redeeming a child from the Church is just what it means. If you do not want your child sacrificed to the church, then you must pay to get him out. If you cannot understand what is being said, then seek advice from those who are well versed in this material. Only full on religious zealots go so far as to believe that god wrote on stone for Moses. Let me give this story a bit of factual meaning; Now Moses was somewhat miffed with his people, who like a bunch of modern day Zionists, complained about everything. So Moses went up on Mount Sinai and found that Hammurabi had been there before him and had left Stone Stelae sticking up. Now Moses knew the=at the great god/king was leaving such orders all over the lands that he ruled and Moses knew that if he purloined a couple, that they would not be missed. And so, that is how we got the 600 plus commandments of Hammurabi of Mesopotamia, The original place of the Hebrews.
In answer to Atheos , who for some reason thinks that I am a Christian?? Atheos, I do not like people interfering with history and in particular historic figures. It does not take much commonsense for an average brain to work out what is factual and what is fictional in history. True historians know what to accept, what to investigate and what is too ludicrous for words. I am replying to your post forthwith.
Atheos says:
April 17, 2016 at 8:00 PM
LivingChurchofGod
Please accept my apologies for not replying sooner only I’ve been dealing with a daughter who has been diagnosed with a life debilitating condition and a family friend, a mother of 2 boys who at the age of 34 has months left to live thanks to terminal cancer. Not to worry though, as according to Christians like Ray Waren et al this is all be part of God’s Perfect personal plan for their lives.
This is the statement of a bastard, one who tries to use the illness’s of others to lower the standard of those who do not accept his words. If there is a God, I do not think he would be too worried about your family mate, he has Syria and many other major problems to solve, you are coming a very bad last with your minor family problems. RJW
For the record I was a believer for almost 30 years, was a candidate for ordination in 1982-1984, graduated with an honours degree in Theology from a Welsh university in 1987, and am now studying towards a Masters/PhD at Cambridge. I’ve also studied modules in Astronomy and Classical Greek at Uni. I have attended a wide variety of denominations; Church of England, Church in Wales, Methodist, Baptist, Chapel (you’ll understand if you’ve lived in Wales), Presbyterian, Roman Catholic, AoG, Elim, Apostolic, Restoration, Full Gospel, GrapeVine, Oikos Movement (house fellowships) to name most of them. These denominations covered; Pentecostal, Mega church, Evangelical, High Church, Low Church, House Church, Charismatic to name a few of the flavours of Christianity. I have experienced worship in English (British, American, Canadian, South African, Australian, Maltese), Welsh, Latin, and dare I say Glossolalia. I’ve led church services, worship, bible studies, CYFA groups, Pathfinders and house groups. I’ve also read some of the communication between early church fathers, various books that did not make it into our New Testament, studied portions of early manuscripts like Codex D in Cambridge University library and Greek New Testaments. Obviously I have read many works from scholars on various theological topics. So I think we can say that your comment that I have not tried everything yet and just given up rings a little hollow doesn’t it? I’ll thank you that you didn’t take things further as most believers in my wider family did and make insulting statements that I had not really made a genuine commitment to follow Jesus.
it is obvious from your movements, that you are a lost soul searching for a God that will do all the things that you want him to do. Who do you think you are, Aladdin?? RJW
I will challenge you for implying that seeking evidence/the truth is somehow wrong and that we should just all blindly accept what Christians with their myriad of interpretations from the many questionable translations of the various canons of their religious texts tell us we must believe. We’ve already had a 603 year period from 1231 to 1834 of the inquisitions across Europe where the church told us all what to believe … or else! … we faced torture to extract confessions that we were heretics/devil worshippers/witches/wizards and then tortured to death to execute us. This period in history was called The Dark Ages, as scientific enquiry and discovery was opposed by the church, so progress arguably went into decline. Read the Malleus Maleficarum to see the depths of depravity that people who followed “faith” sank to in their suspicions and treatment of women. Actually, please do not read it! Yes I do indeed chose to analyse the evidence. It is better to work from the known towards the unknown. From what we can see to what we cannot see. Our primitive ancestors thought illness, diseases were caused by angry gods or evil spirits, because they could not see bacteria or viruses like we can today. Using your line of reasoning that by wanting to see evidence I am “attacking faith” (lack of evidence), then it is like saying that I am “attacking vegetarians” every time I chose to eat bacon. That quotation from Hebrews 11:1 makes no sense to me! You are blind by acting on what you can see, but somehow have perfect 20/20 vision when trying to act on things you cannot see. How can something that is unseen be evidence when it cannot be seen to be verified as evidence?
Your above statements are so childish and also foolish, you appear to be seeking God but try to denigrate that belief in case you are wrong. Yes the deplorable conduct of our people in times of old were acts of cruelty and barbarity just as the Muslims are doing today. A person sees that which he wishes to see and ignores all that oppose his view. RJW
How can you possibly make such bold claims about what is unseen, invisible or otherwise hidden from our senses, when you cannot physically see it. How do you know it is there? The word ‘Occult’ means ‘Hidden’ and the Astronomical phenomenon of Occultation occurs when one celestial body obscures the view of another celestial, like when the planet Jupiter moves behind the moon so is no longer visible, for example. So if you claim to have faith in the invisible, unseen and hidden are you a practitioner of the occult then?
He has one word for that statement….FAITH
I have no problem if people want to believe that the creation legends in Genesis are a kind of fable or parable trying to teach a spiritual truth. However, I do not believe that the Adam and Eve story is a real historical event because modern humans have been around for about the last 250,000 years. We orogiante from Africa, not some mythical garden of Eden somewhere in the Middle East. At one point we shared the planet with both Neanderthal, Homo Erectus, Cro-Magnon and other humans. West Europeans have slight traces of Neanderthal which is alleged to be responsible for boosting our immune systems. In Brighton, Tasmania, during the construction of the Brighton Bypass, archaeologists discovered the remains of a human settlement used by Aboriginal hunter gather communities 42,000 years ago until the arrival of early European Settlers in Tasmania on the 24 November 1642. Yes I am also Tasmanian and lived just up the road from Brighton when this incredible discovery was made.
You are making wild statements without thought or study, Sure, Adam and Eve are mythological in truth but they are and were the figurehead for all human life before science found it’s way in the back door. They were used because it was what the early historians believed was the origination of man in the area that the writers probably existed. To state that early man definitely came out of Africa is now contentious as earlier remains have been found outside of Africa. So let us get down to discussing Brighton in Tasmania and your learning in that region. Your first error is that the site dates back 30,000 years not 42,000 years. Your second error is that early European settlers would have been hard put to settle the place at that date because Abel Tasman did not settle Tasmania, the English did and that was almost 200 years later. Your statements overall do not validate your thoughts as you have apparently learned nothing from your gadding about. I personally am not a Christian and in fact am not religious, I just try to stop idiots from denying the existence of historic figures simply because the populace have applied heroic deeds to them. For an example, look at the American frontiersman Davy Crockett, we know he existed and died at the battle of the Alamo. Since then he has had numerous meritorious acts attributed to him, including killing his first bear at the age of three. I am an Athiest and an historian and have the ability to realize what is myth and what is fact by human understanding.
To Ray J Warren
My apologies Ray, I was actually meant RICK WARREN who wrote The Purpose Driven Lifestyle and runs Saddle Back church in the USA, where he writes about God’s perfect plan for everyone. I was puzzled as to why you were stating that you were an atheist, until I saw the book cover and then the penny dropped. Talk about a complete stuff up on my part. Your name most likely slipped in because whenever I look at anything to do with Australia, I recall that you are a naval historian, and I had a first fleet related question on my mind.
I also shouldn’t be taking my personal pain and helplessness out on anyone else, so I have offended anyone, then please accept my apologies. Yes evidently some of my writing is well below par. I was 2 – 0 down in the opening minutes.
If my background gives you the impression that I was a gypsy or ‘blessing chaser’, as I think the latest church jargon is, then you’ve missed the purpose of me showing that far from being someone who tried Christianity for a few years and gave up, I had actually spent several decades following the religion. I would have thought you’d give me some credit for taking the time to see quite a few different flavours of beliefs and practices, as well as wanting to be a part of it, but ordination was not for me. I would have thought at least you would recognise that I was open minded about other denominations, not blinkered by my own camp. I was very much into Ecumenism so would regularly attend other churches, to find out what was going on else where. So I would agree with you there that I was afraid I might be wrong about what I believed, hence the checking in with other churches to see where they were at. There was quite a bit of paranoia going around at the time about false gospels being preached by certain churches.
I have no idea what you mean by your statements do not validate your thoughts, Ray, unless you know what my thoughts are, and I’m sure that you do not. At times you sound like some Christian members of my extended family trying to win me back to Jesus, when you equate me to a lost soul searching for a god. I’m sorry Ray, I’m not lost or chasing after some god, as those days are well and truly gone, so not sure where your reference to Aladin fits in, unless you think I might need to use a wish or two to dig myself out of this hole. Yes I am searching, but not for anything supernatural or metaphysical unless it can cure cancers.
“A person sees that which he wishes to see and ignores all that oppose his view. RJW “ That is exactly how I was as a believer. If you think I am a bastard now, you should have seen what an alouf w**ker I was as a Christian. I’m ashamed to admit that I deliberately spurned people simply because they were not Christians, in case they corrupted my thinking, although I seemed to be doing my own fair share of that myself. Strange that you also make that comparison between Christianity’s barbaric past and similar types of events occurring within Islam today. The barbarity seems to have started some 1300-1400 years or so from the start or founding of the religion. Would that suggest that a religion or ideology goes through a destructive stage around 1300-1400 years after being founded?
Regarding the Brighton find, I’d have thought you’d be keen to say something less dogmastic than “Your first error is that the site dates back 30,000 years not 42,000 years”, more along the lines of “There have been a few developments since then mate that you might want to check out before you go any further” and then provided me with some reference and an invitation to get my information from a more up to date source. However if you think you are dealing with a bastard who makes childish comments then I guess you probably wouldn’t. Most of the newspaper and TV coverage I saw dated the Brighton site between 40,000 to 43,000 years old, so my sources must also be “making wild statements without thought”. Any media observer or media historian would know that most initial news coverage quoted dates in the region of 40,000 plus, so I’m very surprised that you missed these reports, being a historian. There was one initial report that I came across from the ABC that dated the site between 28,000 and 40,000 years ago, but most sources seemed to use 40,000 plus, so that is what I went with. Was I wrong to go with the majority? If you are aware of any recent sources with revised datings for the Brighton site, then I would be interested to know please.
“Your second error is that early European settlers would have been hard put to settle the place at that date because Abel Tasman did not settle Tasmania, the English did and that was almost 200 years later.”
I was well aware that Abel Tasman did not settle and that there have been various nations interested in exploring the island. I merely mentioned the first contact between the island and Europeans, trying to give some perspective on how long Tasmania had been left to its own devices for thousands of years before any outsiders showed up.
I’m also well aware that the First Fleet from England first arrived in Port Jackson on 26 January 1788, because 26 Jan is when Australia Day is celebrated. I could be equally pedantic about your comment that the English arrived in Tasmania almost 200 years after Abel Tasman, since Hobart was established around 1803 with Launceston shortly afterwards, so more like about 150 years later, a similar error margin to your source that Brighton is 30,000 years old not 42,000.
In your haste to chastise a fool, I think you missed that we probably have some agreement in seeing Adam, not so much as a real historical figure but maybe a representative of the dawn of humanity. As I said I have absolutely no issues with anyone who interpreted the text symbolically or as a parable say. However a lot of Christians, not all by any means, do believe in a literal Adam and Eve, as apparently did some writers of the New Testament. Although I do like your suggestion that the garden of Eden was set in the Middle East because that was where the person(s) writing the text lived, so it is quite probable that they would think that humanity also originated from the same place. That is one I have not come across before.
I’m guessing that you are refering to the Chinese discovery of an old jaw bone that challenges the Out Of Africa theory and/or the dating of the main migration events from Africa. That said, the Out Of Africa theory still appears to be the more dominant opinion in academic circles, unless my sources are wrong again. I wouldn’t be surprised if we see some major revisions to human evolutionary theories.
You come across as someone who knows a fair bit about Australia, so can I ask if you the First Fleet question by any chance? If so, are you able to confirm one way or the other if the main reason England suddenly decided to set up penal colonies in Australia was because they had just lost their American colonies?
Well now Atheos, yes, it is easy to mistake one Warren for another, they breed like Rabbits. In answer to your question about America and it’s Convicts; Yes England had two reasons for sending convicts to Australia, the first being that her newly discovered lands needed to be populated and have military establishments to show ownership and included in this was the fact that the Dutch and the French [and the odd Spaniard and Portuguese] were patrolling the South Pacific and so a population was required. The second reason was that the Americans had gained their independence and no longer wanted the British hanging about and even less, wanted their convicts. Now if you Google my Blog online [The Warren Register] you will find the answers to all shipping questions related to the settlement of the Antipodes. It is a fairly large Blog 3000 normal pages covering the years 1768-1949 and there are also some American ships there also. It contains the exploration by Cook, the Convict Ships, Early Passenger Ships, Shipwrecks, Gold Rush passenger ships, the Movie Fleet, famous tea and wool ships and the great grain fleet of the 20th century. As for the rest of your post, I am the type that when attacked, will retaliate by humiliation for I do not like to be considered something that I am not. I will accept criticism on my work and will correct errors but after 40 years study in many fields, I believe that I have a good general knowledge overall.
In regard to your religious searching, you obviously did not find what you were looking for and have come to the conclusion that it does not exist. I differ in this regard, I believe that just as Christmas exists in the minds of those who believe, so does God, for the belief of those who are faithful to their religion, keep their God living. I know and you know that God as written and talked about by humans does not exist but the great love of the Earth and it’s beauty and mystique are what cause humans to feel that only a great God could have created it all. We know that nature is responsible but why would we want to destroy the belief that others have if that belief does no damage to us? The Bible has carried down the laws of Hammurabi to us, laws that were written for an ancient society that we have modeled our own laws on today. So why are there those who would deny the believers the right to believe, why do they attempt to denigrate what has been so important to human society in many countries throughout the world?
The Bible is certainly a mishmash of many middle eastern tales, tales that have helped us to meld our societies into law abiding peoples that could easily still be savages in the jungle without said laws. I believe that each to his own, those who find solace in their belief deserve their rest, those who are able to live without a God a perhaps the bravest but they also are entitled to their belief. I believe not in religion for a God would not have need for such triviality. I believe that whatever did set the universe in motion set life in motion and that which did this thing, is a God to me.
I do not have to pray, pay money or sacrifice as that God allows me to live as I see fit and to do as I see fit for the energy I expend in doing my thing is good enough for him/it/she or whatever.
Regards#
rjw
You will find the answer to all your first fleet questions on my free blog, “The Warren Register of Colonial Tall Ships.
Apology accepted.
rjw
I’ve just read the discussion between RJW and Atheos with great interest and I hope to read more from both of you. As a life long seeker of truth, purpose and answers, I’ve also explored a wide range of explanations, but moved on when too much detail was provided that blurred otherwise plausible possibilities. I’m wondering if either of you are familiar with the satirical novella Flatland by Edwin Abbot, and more importantly with Carl Sagan’s explanation of dimensions that it inspired. I’ve attached Dr. Sagan’s interpretation and encourage you to view it (or read it in his astounding book, Cosmos). I still find it profound and revelatory.
As humans we are limited to three dimensions, both in space and time, along with the substantial limitation of our senses. Trapped in our meat suits as it were and paddling in the illusory flow of time, possibly provided to protect our fragile minds from having everything happening at once. Dr. Sagan uses an apple to represent a three dimensional entity making contact with the two dimensional reality of Flatland. Without any possible perception of “up or down”, the two dimensional being was only able to perceive a razor thin slice of the apple with no comprehension of it’s reality. Even after an unexpected experience in the third dimension, the Flatlander was unable to explain it to his fellow Flatlands and was thought of as more than an oddball.
Might the Flatlander’s attempt to explain the unexplainable parallel many of mankind’s deity stories and supernatural myths? As your discourse was back in April, you may or may not read this, but if you do, I’d be interested in your response.
To start, you are wrong. Exodus 34:1 :”The LORD said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and *I will write* on themTHE WORDS THAT WERE WRITTEN ON THE FIRST TABLET, which you broke.”
If we have to solve the “mystery” of the 10/17 commandments, your speculation doesn’t stand up.
Take it logically and chronologically. You THINK that the commandments of the covenant are the ones from Exodus 34. If we count these commandments , they are 17, so they cannot be the 10 commandments written on the tables.
Time after that (because chronologically what is in deut. is after exodus), we have the following:
In Deut. 5 we have a listing of the REAL 10 commandments followed by:
Deut. 5:22: “These are the commandments the LORD proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. *Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.*”
In this moment we can say, these are not the 10 commandments of the covenant, but in Deut. 10:4-5 we have:
*The LORD wrote on these tablets what he had written before, the Ten Commandments he had proclaimed to you on the mountain, out of the fire, on the day of the assembly. And the LORD gave them to me. Then I came back down the mountain and put the tablets in the ark I had made, as the LORD commanded me, and they are there now.*
So there is no doubt that the 10 commandments are the 10 written on the second tables and there is no doubt that these are the commandments of the covenant, because *that is why Moses mentioned the he put them in the ark of the covenant*. The supposed 17 commandments written on the tables are obviously some more rules that God told in addition, when *He* wrote the 10 on the second tables as He said in Exodus 34:1 (before the 17 “commandments” falsely supposed by you as being the commandments of the covenant):
“The LORD said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and *I will write* on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.”,
so consistent with Deut. 10:4-5, while for 17 “commandments” God asked Moses to write them down in Exodus 34:27:
“Then the LORD said to Moses, *Write down these words*, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”
And finally, after your supposed 17 of the covenant, at the end of telling these 17 rules, it is written, in Exodus 34:28:
“And the LORD wrote the terms of the covenant–*the Ten Commandments*–on the stone tablets.”
which is 100% consistent with what Moses declares later in Deuteronomy.
Only considering this statement, it shouldn’t be much thinking effort for you to understand that the 10 cannot be the 17
This is to Truthslayer. Please learn to read these old statements as they have been written, yeas they can be like a doctors prescriptio. I will try to assist you whilst not being able to read your words for reference because you have taken away the ability for one to read gunk whilst one tries to reply to it.
REDEEM; To make a substitute payment for ie; the price for a firstborn son is pone lamb to be paid to the temple for sacrifice. An firstborn Ass can also be redeemed in the same way. Firstborn of the field [wild animals] cannot be redeemed as they always belong to the Lord and are nott redeemable. Even those animals that man becomes devoted to [Pets] that are wild, the firstborn cannot be redeemed. There is much more that I wanted to answer for you but as I have to scroll far too much, I will leave you by saying this, you do not understand the language of the ancients and never will because everything must come together for you in today’s world. You are incapable of understanding what they are telling you but remember this, you are not alone for many religious scholars also have little understanding of what they are reading or studying. I have answers for you on the Stone Tablets from which the Hebrews took their laws. Understand that there were not just 10 commandments, there were some 120 laws written down that Moses had to copy, this story is probably basically true in that he did go up and bring down tablets from God [Hammurabi] and ater breaking them, they would have been easy to copy by laying clay over the words and when dry, lifting the clay off and putting the clay pieces together ready for making a more permanent copy once they were settled.
Thanks for your inane comments, but no, scriptures talk about 10 commandments written in the stone and not 120. Nothing simpler than that. And before concentrating too much to understand old text, do an effort to write some intelligible statements by yourself.
Hiiiii
many of you are thinking that this might look like face book. could you please attend the preach in Church specially Catholic Church first and than you should commence. the Ten commandment of God mostly are used in Catholic church
I stumbled onto this site after watching the “Exodus Gods and Kings” movie. I found it ironic that God put so much effort into punishing the Egyptian Royal families for enslaving the Israelites but didn’t include slavery as a commandment.
Was God actually punishing the Egyptians for slavery; or jealous that they worshipped the Sun God?
Who knows? After reading this page I’ve got a dozen more questions it looks like.
The OT has God not condemning slavery, but rather condoning it. What a monstrous deity to believe into existence.
First of all there is no testament, old or new. There are only covenants. Second, this “monstruous deity” is your creator, the only one that asked you “love your neighbor as yourself” and “take care of the orphans and widows” and “honor your parents” and “do not commit adultery” and “don’t look at the face of someone when you judge” and “do not make false testimony” and so on, there is such a long list. I would say that monsters are those breaking these rules and those rejecting their heavenly father to whom they own EVERYTHING.
Search “blble testaments” emanuel. There are two, the Old and the New. The Christian god is not my creator. I believe you are referencing Jesus, not God, in most of your examples of “wisdom and kindness”. If you believe they’re one in the same, then both are well described by Richard Dawkins….“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion
Here’s a well researched list of the killing perpetrated by, or on behalf of, the “kind and forgiving” god of the bible. I’ll pass on this maniac as my creator and owe it nothing, certainly not respect and adulation. The biblical god only exists in the minds of believers.
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.ca/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html
“Search “blble testaments” emanuel. There are two, the Old and the New”
This kind of studying the scriptures is for you. “Old/new testament” are fraudulent labels assigned partly to scriptures, partly to non-scriptures. But there is no testament in the scriptures, only covenants, as I said, and there is a big difference between a testament and a covenant. I really don’t care what Dawkins says about a topic or another, he seems to be your mentor, definitely is not mine. As concerning the accusations like “God is genocidal”, that’s more than stupid. Ultimately any person is killed by your creator, the moment when the person dies. To consider this as genocide is as insane as considering a criminal any car maker that doesn’t make the cars to last forever. As concerning “God delusion”, believe me, you and your mentor are much more deluded. Some education might help you, but I am not sure.
I don’t “study scripture” emanuel. Far more than the biblical labels are fraudulent. “The terms testament and covenant can be used interchangeably, though covenant tends to be used for the relationship between Jews and God.” Do you identify as a Jew or a Christian? If a CHRISTian, your focus should be on the Gospels, not the Old Testament.
“http://atheism.about.com/od/bibledictionaryonline/p/Covenant.htm
BTW, your smug and sanctimonious demeanour and slurs (stupid, inane, lazy, etc) do little to bolster your professed beliefs and intelligence. Take the time to watch this Bart Ehrman lecture to grasp the broader scope of biblical fraudulence. I’ll guess that you tend to discount anyone, including Dawkins, who challenge your unfounded beliefs but here’s your opportunity to demonstrate that you’re not too lazy to invest an hour and a half
The words “covenant” and “testament” have very different meaning, therefore they can’t be used interchangeably as you claim, unless you made a testament, you gave it to your internet provider and based on it now you have internet. Thanks for recommending me literature from your mentors. I had a time when I watched it, so I know what’s about. And since you recommended me some things, I also recommend you something else: education. That will help you to evaluate correctly what your mentors tell you and your beliefs in general. You told me once you don’t believe something without evidence. From your comments it’s clear that your claim is false.
Regarding covenant vs testament, what I provided was not “my claim”. I provided both a quote and a link to it’s source. Here’s another one that contradicts your statement that they have “very different meanings”.
“The original Greek word is variously rendered according to a translator’s preference, whether within a single version of the Bible, or in comparing versions such as the example below where the original Greek word in Mark 14:24 is translated as “covenant” in the Revised Standard Version (which was based upon the American Standard Version, which was based upon the King James Version) and “new testament” in the King James:”
Here’s the source….http://www.keyway.ca/htm2004/20040715.htm
Regarding education…. I’ve been a student for my entire life and continue to search for truth and meaning from many sources. Those who believe they’ve found it have stopped searching and vehemently defend their beliefs often hurling slurs and insults at “non-believers”. This is sometimes combined with threats of eternal damnation if they’re fundamentalist Christians. I find both pitifully amusing.
I’ll wager that Dr. Ehrman’s education regarding the bible far exceeds both of ours combined and more. Knowing that there are few to no eyewitness accounts of the life of Jesus, anonymous authors of the Gospels written decades after the events chronicled, no original manuscripts, and thousands of errors, omissions and contradictions in the Gospels (the four books that differentiate Christianity from all other religions) verified by scholars who are able to read the extant Greek manuscripts for themselves makes belief in the inerrancy and veracity of the Bible, and particularly the Gospels, borderline delusional.
Perhaps you’d care to reveal the mentors and education that’s provided so much confidence in your beliefs/knowledge. Even if you’ve seen the Ehrman lecture I posted in the past, I challenge you to take the time to watch it again and see if you think the facts he presents are inane, stupid or lazy.
Instead of providing links with false things, I recommend you to start using your brain. If for you “testament” and “covenant” can be used interchangeably, that’s obviously not my problem, but your big one, showing in what degree you master the terms you use in general.
Regarding education, you terribly need it. No educated person can believe the myths you believe, an educated person know that nature can’t create information. You mix your superstitions with education
I provided links to sources that do not agree with you, not just my opinion. Labelling them as false does not detract from them in any way, but does indicate that you are the one who could benefit from more research/education (and less pontificating). I normally wouldn’t find fault with someone’s grammar, as english may not be their mother tongue, but due to your condescending manner I suggest you invest some time educating yourself about syntax.
As far as this goes….”Regarding education, you terribly need it. No educated person can believe the myths you believe, an educated person know that nature can’t create information. You mix your superstitions with education”
Check your syntax. I have no idea what myths you think I believe. Kindly detail the education that’s created your sense of superiority and authority.
…..”an educated person know (should be knows… see educational link below) that nature can’t create information”
Hasn’t your vast education taught you about DNA and RNA or do you not think this is part of nature?
Click to access VerbForm.pdf
Well, Melc, only the fact that you don’t know the clear difference between a testament and a covenant, it’s enough to show that you have no education. The fact that other uneducated people agree with you, doesn’t make your false right. As concerning DNA and RNA, imagine that I heard about them and these alone are elements that destroy your whole false doctrine.If you had an education, you would simply know that nature can’t create DNA/RNA. Why? You need education to understand.
Well I think the punishment was not for enslaving them, but for priding themselves with the fact that the ancient Egyptians regarded the pharaoh as a god. Now if you were a god who literally just created everyone and within a few thousand years, those same people you created have neglected you and taken your people and destroyed many thousands of them, I think you might be a little bit pissed off.
You are insane and part of a CULT!
Sweet ! Lets chop each others head off, rob banks, and be lost in a delusion of self- made. There are obviously two paths -good and evil. Whether defined by the bible or not, which is what just so happens to separate us from the animal kind. Hm..coincidence?
I think some of your brother Atheists are here; http://www.near-death.com/religion/atheism/an-analysis-of-the-ndes-of-atheists.html
The speech that got JFK killed and Eric Linberg on the men who run America on you tube will enlighten people the Torah and New Testament just rip offs of Horus and Mithras . Solon the Athenian statesman decreed it a crime that anyone should shrink from controversy !
I am not sure what all the fuss is about with this website. Honestly, Christians know what the Ten Commandments are in principle. They are but a school master. Secondly, Jesus most pointedly described the writings of the Ten Commandments to the rich young ruler in St. Matthew 19. As you will notice from several excerpts from the New Testament, the people in Jesus day seemed to be able to recount them quite easily. Moreover, Jesus asked the Lawyer in St. Luke 10 how does he read them. He being an expert said, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself.” Anyone with any biblical knowledge knows that the Ten Commandments are only two commandments in principle and sincerity. Love God and your neighbor.
I believe th 10 commandments are laws to protect rich and powerful jews back then. They didn’t want them to steal, to kill etc in other words they didn’t want the slaves to be wise and do a revolution. They wanted to control the masses and that is still going on nowadays. I believe in God but as John 4;8 God is LOVE and thats it, no other thing to know about christianity all else is false and corrupted by very hypocrite people.
Religion is all man made from day one. we do and will never know how far back time goes, as we spread across the globe as is from day one our minds continue to grow. As people seperate into different groups choices begin, when people talk ideas come together, the time line begins and so does religion,government,greed,death,life,and even re-invention. We do all these things in life just to appesse the brain that controls the body that was given to us that we take advantage of ever day. We may never know the truth but it is better to teach or children and ourselves instead of giving them false facts about the bible.
Excellent points, jason! The vast majority of religious beliefs have been adopted from family and culture, not chosen by thoughtful research. The Christian god was most certainly created by men, not the other way around. The Bible is not the “living word of God”. It was written by men and plagierized from earlier myths. Humans with their “advanced” minds, are the only species that create and worship imaginary deities. Our minds encourage us to believe we are special and have deep meaning and purpose to our lives. Children often believe in Santa (a clever anagram for Satan), the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny. They eventually realize these are not real, but amazingly, as adults, may adopt beliefs that are equally unbelievable without strong faith and little to no skepticism or rational thought.
“The vast majority of religious beliefs have been adopted from family and culture, not chosen by thoughtful research”
Again, irony, Melc, that perfectly applies to your silly beliefs.
Jason you say “Religion is all man made from day one”. Which is that day? Can you describe it? Is it the day in which a monkey was miraculously transformed in a man?
Congratulation, emanuel!!! You’ve finally achieved making a complete ass of yourself, and unworthy of serious consideration and discussion. You’ve once again, stated that I have “silly beliefs” without providing any examples. You’ve repeatedly flaunted your imagined vast knowledge and replied to numerous posters with condescendence, slurs and insults. Jason didn’t literally mean a specific day, you condescending ass. “From day one” is an idiom (look it up as part of your on-going education). He even included the easily understandable meaning with …..”will never know how far back time goes”. Regardless of his clear meaning, your knee jerk reaction as to ask for a description of a specific day in time. Pitiful.
Your monkey statement was the topper though. Straight from the Fundamentalist Handbook and one of the most inane (to borrow one of your terms) and tired responses possible.
It seems as though you spend a considerable amount of time on this site, often firing off your responses to posts within minutes of them appearing. I may engage you if you post something intelligent or thought provoking in the future, but I have more worthwhile things to do with my time. For example, I”m off for a walk in the woods with my dog.
“You’ve once again, stated that I have “silly beliefs” without providing any examples”
Well, Melc, I have provided, but I know anything is too subtle for you, even the difference between a testament and a covenant.
I’m back from my walk and see that it only took you 10 minutes to post your insipid reply. It’s not surprising that you can fire them off so quickly when you simply ignore the bulk of what you’re replying to and focus on an insignificant fragment that keeps you in your comfort zone. As someone who routinely denigrates others regarding their lack of education, why not take a break from monitoring this site and continue yours? You could start with understanding syntax and idioms.
I reply when I want. idiot. And if you are concerned in my replies to you that sometimes took days or months, see how quick are yours.
Im not religious at all. But i don’t see how saying “don’t kidnap a man’s wife” equals treat her like chattel.
I can tell you this Sir-You will never free people from so called ‘tyranny of their religions’ through witty ‘intellectual’ discourse and attack of religious texts. that is why most people who have read your stuff and commented seem to have been seeking your kind of content. This somehow makes them feel sane when they find someone who doesn’t agree with Christian doctrine(Christians themselves are divided on some things)-just like you will find people attacking science research and scientists never seeming to agree on somethings.
I can tell you obviously pumped up about being “intellectual” .One thing I know about wisdom is that it accepts its foolish and I am not able to tell you where God comes from but I have put all my faith and hope in him.
please allow me to ask a few questions
Where does your intellect come from? and why you? and not the guy in psychiatric hospital or with autism?
What have you been able to choose in life-your parents? Your skin tone? Your body shape? Your brain? Your career? Your emotions?
Do you tell you stomach to digest your food and eye to produce tears or it just does it. do you tell yourself how satisfied you are or its a sense you just feel.WHY?
What’s the point to life and all its diversity and where is evidence for the need for diversity? Why not humans and chickens only and maybe Marijuana?
What is the source of all matter and anti matter,all elements and what is the source of their source and so on and so on ?.where is the evidence for the source of all these things and more evidence for all sources of sources of sources of things. You are the intellectual-Tell US!!
science is the simple stuff (where is the origin of all the forces,interactions
I ask these questions(I have more than 100 of them) not because I know but because we all don’t know much and have to be careful with attacking things people believe and why they believe.
I do recognize the hypocrisy of some Christians and its quite annoying but a true Christian will not need to argue with you or engage in unnecessary intellectual discourse but he/she will let how they live their lives speak. How a person lives their lives makes a greater statement to others than any amount of intellectual talk. The only difference between you and a true Christian is not how well you able to defend what you believe but how you leave what you believe. A true Christians’ life will set your conscious on a burner more than a self righteous bible thumping one.
Your life must mean something and there must be a reason why you are here. Iif your evidence for atheism is found in debunking religion. You will soon find Christ.
lordydaddy
If you can put your blind trust into a supreme being/deity or supernatural entity without needing any objective, verifiable evidence then you are able to do something that I can no longer do, because I do not think it is a wise move to accept something of such paramount importance without first examining the evidence. Would you just jump straight in and invest in my company if I knocked on your door and told you that I would make you a million-fold return on your investment and we have it on the authority of The Great Poke Of Do Himself (I invented a false mystical religion called “Pokey-Do”)- The Divine Emperor of the Multiverse, who personally “flatulated the multiverse into being” and my authority for this? “… Oh look! It says so here in The Book Of Do” (the religious text of the Pokey-Do religion)! I would expect you to be sceptical of my claims and do some research of your own.
Personally, I was a believer once, but the more I read and studied the bible the more problems I had trying to reconcile texts with reality. I concluded that to be a Christian, you have to believe things, and believe in things that you now are not true and did not happen, or go against what we see in the natural world. To be a believer we have to suspend disbelief in the same way we do when we read a novel or watch a fictional movie. To be a Christian I had to believe that it was OK for God to slaughter people and command the Israelites to slaughter defenceless men, women and children. I had to believe that despite God deliberately trying to commit Omnicide and kill everything with a flood, that He was still a really nice chap, so very good natured, even though I knew that the actions were those of an evil tyrannical despot, who was throwing a tantrum and having a hissy fit. There is far too much wickedness commanded by God in the text that various committees decided would be your canon of sacred holy book.
Such commands as to rape (force yourself on her) female civilians captured during genocidal raids if they caught your eye, condoning slavery – the ownership of another human being and their children. I’m sorry but I concluded that acts like these do not belong on the resume of a GOOD god. No these were the actions of a primitive, capricious, barbaric bronze age war lord, who wanted to justify his power by coming the old serial killer’s line that “God told me to do it”! “… Oh look! it says so in this text that I am to take slaves or beat my slaves” and thus absolve themselves of all moral responsibility. Evil acts cannot be commanded or enacted by a pure, loving, good person. There came a time in my life when enough was enough and I could no longer go on suspending my disbelief, especially as all the evidence against the bible being the final authoritative word of a deity began to mount up. I was not being honest to myself. Whilst you may have a point that intellectualism is not the be-all-and-end-all, it is where we start from by asking questions and seeing where they lead us for answers.
I note that you seem to think that this site attacks belief and yet seem to be oblivious to the tyranny that Christianity inflicted over 6 centuries on medieval Europe with the inquisitions, where people were physically tortured and executed by the church for not believing what the church leaders thought they ought to believe.
You also mention a ‘true Christian’ a lot, so I wondered how do you know what a ‘true Christian” is? More importantly, where do you get your information from about what a ‘true Christian is? The church? the Bible? Which version /translation of the bible? You subconscious when meditating or praying? You see if you went back to the second century I could point out 5 main groups of believers who had radically different theologies and ideas about who Jesus was, and yet they all regarded themselves as ‘True Christians’.
I take your point that there is much that we do not know about the universe and our place in it, but we have made enormous advances and discoveries, especially in the last few decades. We do know and can prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that manuscripts copied to make up the Christian Bible were deliberately altered to promote various theological points of view whilst simultaneously attacking and condemning the views of rival Christians and to pre-emptively remove blatant contradictions. So if you base your entire faith on a book that contains lies, corruptions and forgeries then how can you claim to know ‘the truth’ when it is based on lies? That is why some of us question religion and its’ texts to analyse it. I’m sorry if you regard this as an “attack on faith”.
It indeed is an “attack on faith,” which in fact you stated in the very beginning of your reply. Your need of “evidence” which is what you choose for yourself, is what Adam and Eve started from the beginning of man-kind;choosing for themselves. It is only that simple. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. If we rely too much on our own knowledge we blind ourselves to where we have no hope. We cannot began to attempt to have the mind of God, and God only works with the humble. You haven’t tried everything yet – you just gave up. All of your claims is you trying to determine on your own knowledge what is right and wrong. You made your own lies which I hope you soon see.
LivingChurchofGod
Please accept my apologies for not replying sooner only I’ve been dealing with a daughter who has been diagnosed with a life debilitating condition and a family friend, a mother of 2 boys who at the age of 34 has months left to live thanks to terminal cancer. Not to worry though, as according to Christians like Ray Waren et al this is all be part of God’s Perfect personal plan for their lives.
For the record I was a believer for almost 30 years, was a candidate for ordination in 1982-1984, graduated with an honours degree in Theology from a Welsh university in 1987, and am now studying towards a Masters/PhD at Cambridge. I’ve also studied modules in Astronomy and Classical Greek at Uni. I have attended a wide variety of denominations; Church of England, Church in Wales, Methodist, Baptist, Chapel (you’ll understand if you’ve lived in Wales), Presbyterian, Roman Catholic, AoG, Elim, Apostolic, Restoration, Full Gospel, GrapeVine, Oikos Movement (house fellowships) to name most of them. These denominations covered; Pentecostal, Mega church, Evangelical, High Church, Low Church, House Church, Charismatic to name a few of the flavours of Christianity. I have experienced worship in English (British, American, Canadian, South African, Australian, Maltese), Welsh, Latin, and dare I say Glossolalia. I’ve led church services, worship, bible studies, CYFA groups, Pathfinders and house groups. I’ve also read some of the communication between early church fathers, various books that did not make it into our New Testament, studied portions of early manuscripts like Codex D in Cambridge University library and Greek New Testaments. Obviously I have read many works from scholars on various theological topics. So I think we can say that your comment that I have not tried everything yet and just given up rings a little hollow doesn’t it? I’ll thank you that you didn’t take things further as most believers in my wider family did and make insulting statements that I had not really made a genuine commitment to follow Jesus.
I will challenge you for implying that seeking evidence/the truth is somehow wrong and that we should just all blindly accept what Christians with their myriad of interpretations from the many questionable translations of the various canons of their religious texts tell us we must believe. We’ve already had a 603 year period from 1231 to 1834 of the inquisitions across Europe where the church told us all what to believe … or else! … we faced torture to extract confessions that we were heretics/devil worshippers/witches/wizards and then tortured to death to execute us. This period in history was called The Dark Ages, as scientific enquiry and discovery was opposed by the church, so progress arguably went into decline. Read the Malleus Maleficarum to see the depths of depravity that people who followed “faith” sank to in their suspicions and treatment of women. Actually, please do not read it!
Yes I do indeed chose to analyse the evidence. It is better to work from the known towards the unknown. From what we can see to what we cannot see. Our primitive ancestors thought illness, diseases were caused by angry gods or evil spirits, because they could not see bacteria or viruses like we can today.
Using your line of reasoning that by wanting to see evidence I am “attacking faith” (lack of evidence), then it is like saying that I am “attacking vegetarians” every time I chose to eat bacon.
That quotation from Hebrews 11:1 makes no sense to me! You are blind by acting on what you can see, but somehow have perfect 20/20 vision when trying to act on things you cannot see. How can something that is unseen be evidence when it cannot be seen to be verified as evidence?
How can you possibly make such bold claims about what is unseen, invisible or otherwise hidden from our senses, when you cannot physically see it. How do you know it is there? The word ‘Occult’ means ‘Hidden’ and the Astronomical phenomenon of Occultation occurs when one celestial body obscures the view of another celestial, like when the planet Jupiter moves behind the moon so is no longer visible, for example. So if you claim to have faith in the invisible, unseen and hidden are you a practitioner of the occult then?
I have no problem if people want to believe that the creation legends in Genesis are a kind of fable or parable trying to teach a spiritual truth. However, I do not believe that the Adam and Eve story is a real historical event because modern humans have been around for about the last 250,000 years. We orogiante from Africa, not some mythical garden of Eden somewhere in the Middle East. At one point we shared the planet with both Neanderthal, Homo Erectus, Cro-Magnon and other humans. West Europeans have slight traces of Neanderthal which is alleged to be responsible for boosting our immune systems. In Brighton, Tasmania, during the construction of the Brighton Bypass, archaeologists discovered the remains of a human settlement used by Aboriginal hunter gather communities 42,000 years ago until the arrival of early European Settlers in Tasmania on the 24 November 1642. Yes I am also Tasmanian and lived just up the road from Brighton when this incredible discovery was made.
You make some excellent points in your well written post, Atheos. If you haven’t seen the Bart Ehrman lecture I posted above, I think you’d enjoy it. Much of what’s posted here is personal opinion. Being presented with knowledge and facts is far more satisfying.
Bravo to your well written post, Atheos!! You may enjoy the lecture by Dr. Bart Ehrman that I posted farther up.
Whoops!! I didn’t mean to post similar replies, however, Dr. Ehrman’s presentation is worthy of two and now three kudos as is your post, Atheos.
Two points in response to your post, lordydaddy. Scientists know they can be wrong and are constantly challenging existing hypothesis, theories and facts through the scientific method. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
Fundamentalist “believers” accept on faith without evidence or proof. Atheism is usually defined incorrectly as a belief system. Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods. Most, if not all, of us are atheists unless we believe in all of the gods that have been created/believed over the ages. Why one might believe in the Christian god and deny Allah
Regarding your questions about intellect. The human mind is far more advanced than that of other species whose primary purpose is to survive and reproduce. Our intellect comes from accumulated experience, with much of it’s foundation ingrained while children, and ends at our death.
For most of us, this accumulation includes the adoption of religious beliefs to satisfy our mind’s hunger for purpose and meaning. The attached document calculates that there is only 0.000036% difference between atheists and monotheistic believers when considering the plethora of gods that have been created.
http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/How_many_gods%3F
It’s obvious Moses was an Egyptian and the legend of Horus is the blueprint for Jesus Christ. DNA of Ramses the same as most men in Western Europe . Makes you wonder !
There is as much similarity between Horus and Jesus as between a mouse and a rocket.
I stumbled upon your site, and all I can say is, the scholarship here is really lacking. For example, Exod 34:20, to redeem a first-born son does NOT mean sacrifice him as you assert above. I cannot even imagine how you came to such an erroneous conclusion but after seeing such a blatant misunderstanding on something so simple, I was not going to give any credence to that which followed. Not only do you not understand the Hebrew word used which is ‘padah’ but you don’t seem to even understand the English word ‘redeem (nor the context of the surrounding verses) because redeem does not mean sacrifice. It was the heathen who sacrificed their sons and the children of Israel were expressly forbidden to engage in such practice.(Deut 12:31). To redeem means to take back (from the L-rd, to whom all first-born male children belonged) in exchange for a payment (to a priest). Notice also that redeeming a first-born child was a command; the parent HAD to redeem the child, again pointing to the fact that G-d did NOT want the child sacrificed. And your Jewish friend is right; it does not say ’10 commandments’ in the Hebrew; it says “the ten words” (Exod 34:28; Deut 4:13; 10:4). I could go on and on, but scripture says, ‘Do not cast pearls before swine.’
You’re probably right about the “redeem” nonsense. I’m going to remove it. None the less, what say you to all the other impossible situations I present?
My scholarship is lacking? There may be a few inaccuracies accidentally in here but nothing compared to the intentional bullshit embedded in almost every page of the Wholly Holey Holy Bible allegedly written by your omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God. Why is there still disease if prayer works?
Scholarship lacking? Take a look at the references I have used
Seems strange that the “creator of the known universe” could create a couple of sheets of carbon fibre, or teflon, or something else that is impossible to destroy, and then create some form of printing press and print off a few hundred copies of the so-called ten commandments that would last for millennia. … Of course, when you have the bible written by goat herders who have no idea of science, biology or anything else other than how to sacrifice a goat, it’s impossible to do.
Or as George Carlin put it: “Moses went up the mountain … all alone … “
Sorry, I meant to say “couldn’t create …”
I have been am Atheist for over 20 years and agree with most of what you have here, but unfortunately we can not make mistakes as the people who believe the fairytales of the bible will use this to discredit us.
WELL HERE IS AN ANSWER!
So what’s this about? Contradiction already. Moses spake…. No! God spake. None-the-less these “shalt not” commandments were recited by either God or Moses. The words of the conventional wisdom 10 commandments WERE SPOKEN! These “conventional wisdom” 10 commandments were merely spoken. Get it? Spoken! If these words were spoken by God|Moses, who wrote them down? On what? How is it that we have them now? There is nothing about stone tablets in this first narrative. So, we don’t have the stone tablets referred to below but we have the above spoken words ? Not Likely!
To begin, The ten commandments were not ten commandments but in fact were a direct copy from the Stelae of Hammurabi of Mesopotamia. Like all kings of great nations, he styled himself as a God to his people and was a son of God his father. The stelae of Hammurabi contained some one hundred or more “Commandments” that can be found in the King James version of the Bible. God [if there is one] Spake to Moses as would a teacher, God then laid down the words on Stone. I believe that the Bible is referring to Hammurabi as being God for it was he who placed Stelae all around his conquered lands, Some of which exist today.
BTW – 10th Commandment Condones Slavery
The conventional wisdom 10th commandment is abominable. It equates wives and manservants and maidservants with houses, oxen, asses and any other property that is thy neighbor’s. Wives and slaves are property, no doubt.
So what, this still occurs today in Islam and has not too long ago been taken out of Christianity.
The 2nd Version
The next time Moses received the 10 commandments, after 40 days and 40 nights on the mount, There are stone tablets written by “the finger of God”. HAMMURABI
32:15 And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.
32:16 And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.
However, Moses dropped and broke the first set of stones writ by the finger of God!. Again we find it interesting that Moses would deign to intentionally break STONES written on by God and suffer no consequence!
32:19 And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses’ anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.
So… we don’t really know what was on those stones; but we are soon going to find out!
Yes we do! The Stelae of Hammurabi still exist
Finally, the REAL 10 commandments
34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.
34:4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.
34:10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.
Exodus 34:14-26
1. For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
2. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.
4. But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.
.5. Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.
6. And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the first fruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year’s end.
7. Thrice in the year shall all your men children appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel.
8. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.
9. The first of the first fruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God.
10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother’s milk.
34:27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
Wait a minute! WHO wrote the words? God said “I will write”; this verse says Moses wrote. Another piece of nonsense!
34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he (Moses?) wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Surely you can reason this out simply by looking at the posts coming in from some of your cohorts? They make many mistakes and so perhaps, did the scribes of old.
Read that carefully. Here is the bible stating in no uncertain terms that the above commandments are the REAL 10 commandments as dictated, (“write thou these words”), by God to Moses.
You didn’t know that did you. There’s a lot in the bible you don’t know.
Lest you believe that this is from an odd-ball translation, read 19 different bible translations HERE . They all say the same thing “…these are the 10 commandments”.
I had a Jewish friend claim that “it only says 10 commandments in the Christian bibles but when you read the Hebrew, it doesn’t say 10 commandments. He was wrong… HERE it is in Hebrew. It says “these are the 10 commandments.
No my friend, there are TEN mainstream commandments and many more that are on the Stelae of Hammurabi that most non-religious scholars agree were taken by the Hebrews as their own laws following their old country [Sumer] laws generated from some 500 years previous.
WAIT! WHAT WAS THAT?
This section has been challenged by Mitchell below. He says I am misreading the concept of “redeem” and “consecration”. He is probably correct. But, I am leaving this in. You decide what this nonsense means. It is not absolutely clear to me that you are not to kill your first kid.
You are to sacrifice your first born son to God right along with your ass or a lamb instead of your ass. It says so, right here in Exodus 34:19-20.
All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.
But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.
As this implies, all belong to God but an Ass you can redeem with a lamb [Redeem means to pay for and take back as you would a pawned watch from a pawnbroker]. All the firstborn of their sons thou shalt redeem, means that by payment of a lamb, your firstborn son is redeemed. Was it not Abraham who redeemed his son by sacrificing a lamb?
Lest you think I am misquoting this passage, you are invited to see it represented in 19 different translations in the Bible Hub.
NO…. you did not misread or misunderstand. God makes it clear in other verses that he means you should sacrifice your firstborn son!
You are misreading the Bible, the threat was there from old that a firstborn son should be sacrificed if the laws of God were not obeyed but a change to these laws of old allowed for a lamb to take a sons place.
Exodus 13:2
“Consecrate to me every firstborn male. The first offspring of every womb among the Israelites belongs to me, whether human or animal.“
In other words, “All is mine of Israel but you can by payment redeem it.”
Exodus 22:29
“Do not hold back offerings from your granaries or your vats. “You must give me the firstborn of your sons.
“But wait!” my Jewish friend exclaims. “That’s not what it says in the Hebrew” he says. “Yes it is!” we say. Have a look for yourself.
Exodus 34:20 in Hebrew
Exodus 13:2 in Hebrew
Exodus 22:29 in Hebrew
And then of course this is confirmed in Leviticus and Numbers.
Leviticus 27:28-29 Notwithstanding no devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the LORD of all that he hath, both of man and beast, and of the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the LORD. None devoted, which shall be devoted of men, shall be redeemed; but shall surely be put to death.
What gibberish but it appears that something that is first born is surely going to be put to death
Numbers 3:13 Because all the firstborn are mine; for on the day that I smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt I hallowed unto me all the firstborn in Israel, both man and beast: mine shall they be: I am the LORD.
Ahh, much more to the point; all the firstborn in Israel (both man and beast) belong to the LORD, just as they did in Egypt.
Analysis – For Critical Thinkers Only
Whereas the “conventional wisdom” 10 commandments have four, common sense moral prohibitions, the REAL 10 commandments are total, utter and complete nonsense. The real 10 commandments are even less prohibitive of amoral behavior than are those commonly accepted 10 commandments.
So, we have two, maybe three different versions of the 10 commandments. Which one is “true”. One of the versions is wrong and therefore the Bible is wrong. How is it that conventional wisdom gives us the version that was recited (Moses went down and spake/ god spake ) to the Children of Israel? Who wrote them down on what? There never was a written record of those 10 commandments that are now recognized as THE 10 commandments. The first stoney version was broken. There is no question that the bible is wrong on this matter.
What gibberish you are speaking, “One version is wrong so the Bible is wrong??” Of course the Bible has many errors but it is far older and wiser than you are, it is history and has been making history for three thousand years,you are here for seventy or so and what history will you have created?
Wait, There’s More
There are three radically different accounts of what happened after Moses angrily smashed the tablets containing the 10 commandments when he came down from Mount Sinai. These accounts are well discussed in “What Really Happened After Moses Broke The Tablets?” written by Thomas McDaniel from Palmer Seminary. Briefly, here are the variations:
According to Exodus 32;20, Moses made the people drink water contaminated with the toxic powder from the ashes of the golden calf, seemingly for the purpose of fatally poisoning all who had worshiped the golden calf. And then he turned brother against brother, neighbor against neighbor. Some loving God what?
According to Exodus 32:35, God sent a plague upon the people,
According to Deut 9:21, Moses threw the toxic ashes into a brook so that the waters would carry the ashes into oblivion—without anyone being made to drink a concocted toxic beverage.
Again contradictory stories in the inerrant bible. Can’t be. The Bible is wrong about two of the above fables.
So what? It is a history of the Jews and that takes it out of your hands, you are like a tiny beach sand on a thousand mile beach.
The Most Egregious Contradiction
6. Thou shall not kill.
Pretty clear. God commands us not to kill!
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
And what is the penalty for violating the fourth commandment?
Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. Exodus 35:2
And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. … And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. Numbers 15:32-36
Well isn’t that just peachy! God commands us not to kill but in the next breath commands us to kill anyone who does anything on the Sabbath. Can ANYONE spin this nonsense into sense? I thought not.
You must not kill unless it is in the name of your God, the Muslims are sticking to the original rules.
Another Example of the Lord Speaking Out of Both Sides of His Wholly Mouth
God told Moses to kill. Even though it was Moses who purposely broke the stones containing the words of God, God wants those who thought Moses was gone forever to be killed.
“And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. Exodus 32:27
OMG – more nonsense. How can anyone believe this rubbish?
These contradictions are all that is needed to prove the bible is wrong. According to God, EITHER one should not kill OR one should kill those who don’t believe you. Apparently it will “bestow a blessing upon you” Ex 32:29 if you do kill. Everyone knows it is wrong to kill. Why can’t the Bible get it right?
No, you are wrong, the old laws were for their time, not our time.
Wrong By Hubris
And do you think that prior to hearing Moses recite the commandments, everyone thought that it was OK to commit adultery, murder, theft and perjury? There were already laws against all of those transgression codified by Confucius, Hammurabi and others. Ancient Egyptian Laws from which the Children of Israel had “escaped” were far superior to what God told Moses. By the way, in the next three books of the Pentateuch, God commits, commissions and condones 143 separate instances of rape, murder, infanticide, genocide, slavery and torture.
And the Muslims of today still operate by those selfsame laws.
Wrong By Impossibility
WAIT A MINUTE!
“And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount….And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.” Exodus 34:2-4
“The two tables of stone”. According to the Bava Batra* the length and width of each of the Tablets was six Tefachim, and each was three Tefachim thick – respectively roughly 20 and ten inches. That’s 4000 cubic inches of stone for each tablet! Mount Sinai displays a ring complex[4] that consists of alkaline Granites intruded into diverse rock types, including volcanics. The granites range in composition from syenogranite to alkali feldspar granite. With all that considered, let’s take the middle ground – the weight of the rock in that area then is 3500 pounds per cubic yard.
Are you kidding, a Stelae 20 inches by ten inches equals 30cms by 60cms,by perhaps two inches thick
[I believe that the means 20 inches high by ten inches wide] and made of Lapis Lazuli [The length and width of each of the Tablets was six Tefachim, and each was three Tefachim thick – respectively roughly 20 and ten inches, though they tend to be shown larger in art. Also according to tradition, the words were not engraved on the surface, but rather were bored fully through the stone.
The clearest depiction of the stones is given in the Talmudic Midrashic sources as “clear”, “flexible” and “transparent”. So your guessing the weight is full of flaws!
Therefore, the weight of the one (of the two) rocks that Moses allegedly carried is 300 pounds (4000/46,656 * 3500). Since Moses was carrying TWO stone tablets, the total weight of Moses’ load was 600 pounds! That’s a show stopper right there. We have no indication that Moses had super strength. This is the same old goat who needed help to even hold his arms up so God’s “children” would keep on killing some people.
“Come up in the morning… the top of the mount“. Mount Sinai is over 7400 ft high! At a 4% grade, it would take 34 miles to reach an elevation of 7400 feet. In addition, as Moses climbed higher, the the density of oxygen in the air decreases in direct proportion to increasing altitude. Moses was at least 80 (according to the bible) at this time. No one, let alone an 80 year old, is capable of walking 34 miles up to a 7500 foot elevation with stones weighing over 600 pounds “in his hand”.
Now, about the descent.
Really? After 40 days without food or water? Think about that. Forty days without food or water and yet Moses is able to walk a 34 mile route down from an elevation of 7500 feet with two tables totaling 600 pounds?
No way! It could not happen, it did not happen. This is a man made story by ignorant Jews in the marketing department of The Children of Israel.
So the Jews exaggerate little [shrugs].
WAIT A MINUTE
With what did Moses “write” the 10 commandments? A sharpie? Probably not. Coal? Not in the middle of the desert. Quill pen and India ink? Not invented yet. A chisel! Yeah, that’s it a Stanley chisel purchased from Lowes (or Home Depot). Wait…. chisels only work on wood. The Egyptians shaped stones in the pyramids by pounding rock on rock, but that wouldn’t have worked for Moses because he was etching intricate hieroglyphic (not Greek or Arabic) characters into stone. Hmm … We have no idea how Moses “…wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant”. Don’t say that God wrote them because the last we’re told, Moses is doing the writing. It’s a wonder it only took Moses 40 days. No wonder there was no time for food or water.
It is now becoming obvious that you do believe in God, you just want him to be as you see him.
WAIT A MINUTE!
Forty days without water? Forty days without food? No one can live for 40 days without water. You can say that God was in charge of allowing Moses to live 40 days without food and water but then what is the big deal? It isn’t even worth mentioning if it’s a God miracle. So, this is just one more show stopper in the 10 commandments fable. Another proof the bible is wrong.
How in the devil does it prove that the Bible is wrong, the whole Bible, everything??
WAIT A MINUTE!
Where is it? A document of stone written by Moses would surely be worth preserving at all costs. Presumably there were two copies of it, albeit one was broken by Moses (why didn’t God kill Moses for breaking the stones that HE had written on? Heck, God had a man killed for collecting sticks on the sabbath). We digress. Yes the temple was destroyed several times over but the stones written on by God and/or Moses surely would have been removed prior to the destruction. The fact that there is no trace of stone written on by God or Moses is a strong indicator that they never existed. Wasn’t the Ark of the Covenant moved around until it was lost?
See the “Code of Hammurabi” Britannica.
WAIT A MINUTE!
“To the Children of Israel? Biblical scholars estimate that the size of the Exodus would have been more than 1.5 MILLION (who would have formed an 85 mile long column, 10 abreast, 3 feet between rows) people, the same number of people who live in Philadelphia. How could Moses possibly have communicated with all of them? He couldn’t. He didn’t. Bible is wrong.
Biblical Scholars are full of crap and you know it, they are totally biased
Wrong By Omission
The 10 Commandments fail to prohibit atrocities that have been universally recognized throughout the ages as equal to or more heinous than lying, coveting, stealing or murder.
Why are not these the first six commandments ….
Thou shall not enslave.
Thou shall not torture.
Thou shall not kidnap.
Thou shall not molest children.
Thou shall not rape women.
Thou shall not commit genocide (even though I, your Lord, did many times)
Because you are not God, you are not a Hebrew and you certainly are not of their time.
Almost universally, people will identify slavery, torture and kidnapping as the most heinous of acts one person can perpetrate on another person.
Why are these heinous acts… slavery, torture, kidnapping, child molestation, rape not included in God’s list of proscribed behaviors?
Why, instead of “Thou shall not enslave“,
do we have “The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God“?
Why, instead of “Thou shall not torture“,
do we have “Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel.“?
Why, instead of “Thou shall not kidnap“,
do we have “The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.“?
Why, instead of “Thou shall not molest children“,
do we have the opposite “All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.“? i.e. kill your firstborn son.
Why instead of “Thou shall not rape women” do we have
Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother’s milk.
Kids were baby goats not human children!
Why are the worst possible crimes against humanity ignored in favor of homage to God? Nowhere in the bible is there any admonishment not to do any of the above barbaric, savage atrocities.
They had no police force
10th Commandment Condones Slavery, Treats Women As Chattel
In the first set of unwritten, “conventional wisdom” 10 commandments, the tenth “commandment” condones behavior we find reprehensible: women are seen as chattel, no different than the house, the oxen and the ass or any other object the neighbor owns. Servitude is condoned and protected (thou shalt not covet ….his manservant, nor his maidservant). In fact slavery is condoned in both the old and new testaments. God even gives instructions on “How To Sell Your Daughter Into Slavery” (Exodus 21:7-8). And yes, we know the New Testament uses the word “servant’ but the behavior described, that is, ownership of another person, is slavery!
A loving god would have included these despicable acts in his prohibitions. So, whether or not you believe the fable of the 10 commandments, you have to see that no truly loving God, wishing the best for his children, would have failed to prohibit the worst kinds of human deprivation. Don’t steal, don’t lie, …. , these are better than don’t molest children?
And all Islam still see it that way!
Summary
We have just provided numerous examples, in just this one story of the 10 commandments, where the bible is in error, e.g. it is wrong! Only one is needed to falsify the bible. Take your pick. All of the examples can withstand any spin the apologists want to apply.
Are you Kidding, then everything that you quote is erased because of the numerous errors we find you apologizing for in your Blog!
You claim that it was the heathen who sacrificed children?/ You are a bigotted fool, it is common knowledge that child sacrifice and even cannibalism were rife in that era and the Hebrews were no exempt, ask Abram
I’ve just read your Feb. 26 post RJW. Bravo!!
Regarding the 10 commandments Exodus 34:19-20 the word”redeem” means (to preserve) in the Hebrew language? However your documents do show that Moses was the one that actually wrote the words down?? NOT GOD! Just thought I should point that out I do like your website. Ken
I’m a “new” atheist, (from a life long bible thumping, Christian background) and it is so helpful to find a website like this that really explains things in an easy to read format. I enjoy videos and books written by Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, etc. but a lot of the time, I get glassy eyed trying to follow what they’re saying. So thanks, for making this all easier to understand and showing exactly the verses you’re talking about. It’s helping me so much.
Poor you! Did you check the claims of this guy and filtered them through your brain before thanking him? Rhetorical question.
I agree with Ken. I have read through most of this site. You are way over the top in attitude on several of the pages, especially with the comments/discussions with people. A couple of suggestions. Except for the evangelical types out there, most Christians acknowledge the discrepancies in the bible and tend not be read it so literally (but alas, they do take it more literally than they should). Most of your arguments are based upon reading the KJV literally and presenting a “if you believe this you’re an idiot” attitude. Even you would be turned off to someone trying to educate you if that person started off almost every topic with “You are an idiot if you don’t see my point of view.” attitude. I would suggest speaking to as if in a discussion, welcoming the opposing viewpoint. That would do you greater benefit than what you have done. What you are doing is speaking down or at the reader which makes you come off as an uncompromising, know it all jerk. A good thorough rewrite would make your site a more useful and much more powerful tool.
Another suggestion is that you take JP’s above comments to heart about the difference between redeeming and sacrifice and learn more about how a good deal of things you take issue with are actually taught in the church. I am not saying that the church is right and you are wrong, far from it. For example, “Thou shalt not Kill” is taught as “Thou shalt not Murder”. A huge difference. In fact several scholars have said that IS the way it was actually written! If it was to be “kill” that was the word that was used in the ancient text and if it was “murder”, a different word was used in the ancient text to denote the difference between the two. But the KJV translators for some reason used “KILL” for both translations, totally changing the literal meaning. Why? Who knows! But it is just another one of those nagging discrepancies you have to understand and deal with before you make many of your arguments for the truth.
I agree with you on almost every conclusion that you have come up with. I think that every “MIRACLE” in the old testament can be explained scientifically NO DIVINE INTERVENTION. In fact, one of the bones you picked was about the Egyptian plagues. A very good documentary exists about how the eruption of Santorini could have set in motion a chain of environmental events, coupled with Egyptian customs that could have caused them. The wall of Jericho could have been toppled by an earthquake. Sodom and Gommorha could have been destroyed by an asteroid strike! COULD HAVE, not DID! And those ancient peoples could have thought it was divine intervention and told the stories over and over, embellishing, adding details, etc. to make it more of a divine occurrence instead of natural phenomena.
I don’t think that a single man named Jesus existed as portrayed in the Bible. My opinion is that “Jesus” was a combination of maybe several individuals who were all disgruntled with the priests and their way of practicing the faith and were out expounding a different practice. (Much the same as today with all the different sects of Christianity we have.) I am sure some were crucified as criminals, I am sure some were more radical than others, I am sure that some became leaders, martyrs, etc. I am sure that the illiterate people passed along their stories in the oral tradition and because of the persecution, their names were never mentioned and forgotten to history. So 30, 50, 60, or more later, when the GOSPELS were written, much had been forgotten, changed, embellished, fabricated to make these stories more GODLIKE than what they really were. And somewhere along the line, just like SMITH is such a common name today and is frequently used as an alias, JESUS was the name given to these conglomeration of stories about some great teacher who performed miracles, and was resurrected. And as you can see today, the story is still getting retold, embellished, erroneously translated, my way is the only way to believe, WHATEVER, etc.
As for the evangelical types, they are a lost cause, let them pray for you and let it go with them. I do!
Great website! Looking forward to any and all improvements you come up with in the future!
Kevminator
You are so right. I should tone it down …. but I can’t. It just comes out that way. Going back and changing stuff … probably not gonna do that. Your suggestions are valid and I will TRY to be less of an asshole in the future. It is the idea of “belief” without any evidence, nay, with contrary evidence, that gets me going.
Following up on that theme, Here’s some introspection that I didn’t see coming.
I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind. I think the intent of this site is to organize my own thoughts and to prove to myself just how ludicrous the bible stores are. I taught Computer Science for 35+ years – I think always in terms of “if this, then what” and I do that recursively until I reach the bottom. Then having proven to myself “The Truth”, I can’t stand it when others don’t see “The Truth” as I just figured it out. That’s the source of the attitude I think.
BTW… my wife (of 47 years) is a born again Christian. She hasn’t read one word of what’s in this website yet I am inundated with her unbelievable beliefs all the time so maybe I use this media to vent things I don’t say to her.
Anyway, thanks for the comment – you are right.
AH! There is where you are making the mistake. The evidence is out there, it just hasn’t been found yet! Even if it is found, the believers will do one of two things, discount the evidence and go on with their current beliefs or somehow look at the evidence in such a way that supports their beliefs! LOL! If we discovered tomorrow, that a meteor strike, a TOTALLY RANDOM event, destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, Christians would say that the hand of god directed the meteor to the target, supporting their beliefs because the description in the bible pretty much describes a meteor strike! Ludicrous yes, but that is what will happen because they need to believe! That is a topic of a different discussion.
I have the opposite issue with my wife. She is much like you. She is a totally angry atheist! She is fed up with the hypocrisy, the prejudice, condescending attitude of “I’m SAVED!”, “It’s a WIN-WIN if you believe!”, etc. Unlike you, though, she is just as likely argue and confront instead of finding an avenue to vent. Sometimes she embarrasses herself (AND ME) but she is not about to give up the fight! She will still walk up to people preaching on the streets and call them idiots, provoke arguments with friends and family, and occasionally have the physical altercation with someone just as outspoken as she is. Stupid, I know. But what am I going to do? She is just as hard headed as the other side! At least yours will pray for your immortal soul. Besides, the new pope says that people like us have just as good of a chance to get into Heaven as most half-hearted Christians because DEEDS speak louder than WORDS! LOL!
Kev
Best wishes for 2015
Ken
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com http://www.youtube.com/JesusNeverExistd/ http://www.facebook.com/pages/Ken-Humphreys/213467342019658 http://www.facebook.com/pages/Jesus-never-existed/147454358621833
So then, there must be a point to what you are attempting to achieve with your site. surely it is not conversion of the Jews, Christians and Muslims that have a multitude of Torahs, Bibles and Korans covering all this material you so love to hate. First, let me say that you must have something in your life in which you believe is the best. Could it be a football team, Baseball, Basketball or some other sport that you follow with the old fashioned “one eyed” opinions? Well, if you do have such an item to follow, you will at this point realize that you are battering your head against a brick wall and no matter how hard you try to change people, they will be as hard headed as the Bible states.
Not to sound condescending or anything, but in what language does redeem mean sacrifice? If you were going to redeem somebody it wouldn’t mean you were going to kill them or place them on alter to be slaughtered. Redeem most commonly means ransomed “gain or regain possession of (something) in exchange for payment”. That commandment about redeeming first born is not about sacrifice; it is about giving your first born up to God to do his work as a payment for delivering the Jews from captivity. The fact that you even mention later verses were they use the word “consecrate” makes it even clearer. They were to be dedicated to God to do His work. In fact God later revises this which makes it even clearer when he implements the Levitical priesthood in place of the first-born redemption.
“Now behold, I Myself have taken the Levites from among the children of Israel instead of every firstborn who opens the womb among the children of Israel. Therefore the Levites shall be mine, because all the firstborn are Mine. On the day that I struck all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, I sanctified to Myself all the firstborn in Israel, both man and beast. They shall be Mine: I am the Lord.” Numbers 3:12-13
Does this mean God decided to kill all the Levites? No, they were God’s dedicated priests (he “sanctified” them with all the firstborn), his own personal servants where their entire duties were to oversee sacrifices and enforce the traditions and commands that God gave the people. This whole firstborn sacrifice argument is entirely absurd and comes from a lack of understanding of basic word definitions. I mean throughout the New Testament Jesus is called “our redeemer” because he died for our sins. He’s not called a redeemer because he kills people as sacrifice (he was the sacrifice), but because he redeems them. He frees them from the bondage of sin and takes them as His own dedicated servants. I mean it’s great to have an honest discussion about what the Bible says and point out verses that people overlook, but if you are going to reject something based on what it says, it’s good idea to at least research word definitions first before jumping to outlandish conclusions.
You can read more right here: http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/ARTB/k/690/Law-of-Firstborn.htm
Oh … a quote from a bible thumping website will show me the truth?
Hmm….
I’m not ready or willing to buy what you say but it is irrelevant; that was just one of many points I presented showing the ridiculousness of the 10 commandments. What do you say to all the other points?
Does anyone ever think how this old man managed to carry these stone tables down from the mountain. I mean in all seriousness how heavy do you think it was.
UP THE MOUNTAIN AND DOWN THE 7000 FOOT MOUNTAIN. MOSES WAS AT LEAST 80 AT THE TIME. I THINK THE STONE TABLETS HAD TO WEIGHT AT LEAST 250 POUNDS EACH.
Ah truth slayer, I thought you had much more intelligence than that, after all the cute posts you have written, you still come up with a doozy. You say that the ten commandments are ridiculous?? My God man, this is what out society has been based on for three thousand years and you, a little unknown, come along and state that the laws are ridiculous? What no marijuana or ice included huh?
You don’t even know which are the 10 commandments, to start with, that’s why it’s a wonder you showed the ridiculousness of something you don’t know.
are you god?
Surely as an unbeliever, you know that the ten commandments were written and placed on Stelae by Hammurabi who was known as “God” or the “Lord” as were most kings of the ancient world. The ten commandments were the all powerful tool that got you and your forebears to this day and age, thank your lucky stars for people like Hammurabi setting out laws and rules for the ancients to obey.
I am not convinced that “redeem” means anything other than kill. God is all about animal sacrifices. God himself sacrificed his only begotten son. The context of the word implies “murder” or “kill”. You are to “give” God the first of everything, from your granaries, your livestock, your male offspring. What does it mean to “give” God these things? In the case of animals it was a blood sacrifice. I say it is the same with a human animal. After all, God himself sacrificed “his only begotten son”.
When God asks for all the firstborn animals that open the matrix (something like that) does he mean “it is about giving your first born up to God to do his work as a payment for delivering the Jews from captivity.
Exactly what does “giving your first born sheep/goat/hog” mean then if not to kill it?
Anyway your whole premise behind this redeem nonsense is false. God did not deliver anyone out of bondage. The Jews were never enslaved in Egypt, there were no 10 plagues, and there was no Exodus, just as there was no Moses.
The whole discussion about the word “redeem” is moot because none of it happened; those are not the words of a god – I am only pointing out how ridiculous it would be if they were from a god.
As you will understand from Biblical and historical research, Abraham was told to sacrifice his son and in fact built an alter on which to do this act. God then forbade him saying that he was testing Abraham’s resolve. Prior to this, the Hebrews followed Mesopotamian religious acts and sacrifice of children was commonplace. You must remember though, you cannot base your hate on past events as we as an human race have evolved [some of us] and do not practice the acts of the past. Some still adhere to the gross acts of those times, Muslims follow the laws of Muhammad which were taken from the Torah and the Bible some 1400 years ago while some of the Christian religions still “suffer the little children unto thee” with some pretty nasty work. The meaning to your above questions is correct in respect to the sacrifice of animals and probably did mean the same whilst the Hebrews were in Mesopotamia but this appears to have changed with Abraham.
As for the children [firstborn sons] they were probably gifted to the church or temple at a certain age [about 8 years] where they were used in some capacity [alter boys] or other. Whether this was sexually based or not, I do not know but that little verse “suffer unto thee the little children worries me, especially with what goes on now and what has occurred in the past.
Redeem simply means to buy back, as a pawnbroker would hold your goods until you redeem them. I wonder what it is that you want to do here as trying to convert billions of people away from their religions is a somewhat hopeless quest. My suggestion to you would be to start a Blog that is purely atheist in it’s nature, one that discusses what you believe caused the universe to be and stay away from religion for you will be driven mad with it,
If you are just trying to be controversial then you are being a troll to those who believe and that is a waste of time, trying to put such a large operation into receivership is just not a viable enterprise. I can point out many errors and superstitious statements in the Bible and it is a shame to see intelligent people trying to prove that it is all correct at the expense of factual history. But it is their choice to believe and as long as they leave factual history alone, I will not discourage them but I will fight them tooth and nail when I see them trying to falsify proven history in the name of religion.
Religions are huge money making combines and to offend them too much can lead to problems, especially if their revenue is affected, like I said, let them believe what they want and start something that will benefit you and those who believe as you do, after all, is that not how the religions got started?
wow, all the dead pawnbrokers!!!!
Now who is being absurd? Do you think that the Middle East religions have not been studied and investigated for what they are/were? The very reason that the Bible tells you that God makes Abram offer up his son as a sacrifice just as a lamb was later sacrificed is the key. It is a command that sacrifice of children by putting them to death was to no longer be part of the Hebrew religions. Next, sacrifice of first born sons and etc was commonplace in ancient religions and so too was cannibalism. Next;Jesus was the redeemer because it was he who took the place of the child sacrifice and now, only priests “suffer unto ye the little children”, so it is best that you shut down your defense of things when you know not what you talk about. Who are you to tell others what they must do when you have not studied it yourself except in the manner of a religious fool.How do you think he struck the first born in Egypt, with a feather? Also, was not Aaron the firstborn in the family of Moses? Are you stupid or something,? You are correct in the meaning of redeem/redemption but, your explanation of being consecrated and being redeemed stinks and is the writing of someone who gallops headfirst into things in faith only. This is the work of a fool because what God was saying was simply; these children are mine to do with as I will, you can only redeem them if you can do so with something worthwhile. There is no argument about firstborn sacrifice, what we have is a religious nutter who is trying to paint the Hebrew religion white. So how many firstborn do you think the Levites needed to do Gods work, 20,000, 59,999, 100,000 1 million ten million? What kind of crap are you trying to peddle? Are you saying that some Hebrews would lose their firstborn and others would not? please note that he states that all the firstborn are his even though he has decided to take the Levites and make them priests, he still states that all the firstnorn are his.
I like your website but is it necessary to talk down to the Christian your trying to teach, don’t forget they think they are in a higher place when talking or reading about God. The way your writing this they would just delete before you can get them to read what they need to see. So tone it down and keep it educational the truth will set them free? I almost deleted it and I’m an atheist. Ken
Good Point!
I reread and saw what you were talking about. It’s gone now.
Excellent! If only the godly would read their holy book with their critical faculties still engaged they might shed their delusions.
Ken,
What an honor to have you visit my website. Read this post now…. it is much improved since you saw it.way back in March of 2012.
One would think that you would be honored by anyone visiting.
As Will Rogers once said: Religion started when the first conman met the first fool.