The Truth Is…
Here are the reasons the bible is wrong about Moses*:
- The Impossibility of Moses Age.
- Moses is presented as having written the Torah. He did not.
- Moses is presented as revered; he should be presented as vilified.
* Put the word “allegedly” in front of every reference to Moses. Moses didn’t even exist.
Evidence For The Non-Existence of Moses
The Impossibility of Moses Age
The Biblical genealogy of Moses indicates that Moses was in Egypt for 259 years but then the Bible also states he was 80 when he began the Exodus.
The bible gives hard numbers for certain milestones related to Moses. Connecting the milestones in a timeline leads to an inconsistency with respect to the age of Moses that cannot be explained by appeal to divine providence. Working backwards from the known date of the Exodus, 1447 BCE, when, according to the Bible, Moses was 80, we find a 259 year gap between the time Moses is born and the time he leaves Egypt!
DATE
BCE EVENT
1876 430 years before the Exodus, Jacob arrives in Egypt with his son Levi
Exodus 1:1 “Now these are the names of the children of Israel, which came into Egypt; every man and his household came with Jacob.
Exodus 1:2 “Reuben, Simeon, Levi and Judah,”
:
Exodus 1:5 “And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already.”
1846 Levi fathers Kohath at age 30
1816 Kohath fathers Amram at age 30.
1786 Amram fathers Moses at age 30; therefore…
1786 Moses birth date using the Bible’s genealogy
Note that Moses was born out of an incestuous relationship; his father married his aunt, Jochebed.
Exodus 2:1 “And there went a man of the house of Levi (that would be Amram), and took to wife a daughter of Levi (i.e. his father’s sister Jocebed).
Exodus 2:2 “And the woman conceived, and bare a son (that would be Moses): and when she saw him that he was a goodly child, she hid him three months.”
:
: 259 years unaccounted for in the genealogy of Moses
:
1527 Moses birth date if he was 80 at the time of the Exodus as the Bible says he was.
1447 Jews begin their 40 year Exodus from Egypt, Moses is age 80.
1407 Moses dies at age 120, just before the Jews reach the promised land. And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: Deu 34:7
1407 Jews arrive in Canaan after 40 years of wondering in the Desert.
To summarize the above…
Moses in Egypt for 259 years
Moses left Egypt at age 80!
One of those Bible inspired “facts” about Moses is wrong. For this reason, among many others, the existence of Moses as well as the veracity of the Exodus story is disputed amongst archaeologists and Egyptologists, with experts in the field of biblical criticism citing logical inconsistencies, new archaeological evidence, historical evidence, and related origin myths in Canaanite culture.
The story of Moses life, as presented in the Bible, could not have happened. The Bible is obviously wrong about Moses.
Wrong About Moses Being The Author of The Torah
According to religious tradition, everything found in the Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) was given by God to Moses at Mount Sinai (See Judaism On-Line). Which trip up to Mt Sinai is not clear but lets just estimate 1400 BCE. There are a number of impossibilities related to Moses being the author.
- Written language did not exist in 1400 BCE.
In 1400 BCE NOBODY knew how to write Hebrew because there was no written form of Hebrew. Writing was in it’s infancy. In 1400 BCE, the the writing technique in that part of the world was the cuneiform method, whereby a wedge-shaped stylus was used to press the imprints into soft clay tablets. Cuneiform was still a means of writing as late as the 8th–7th century BCE. The “writing” would have been Egyptian hieroglyphs. - Moses was most likely illiterate.
Where and how did Moses learn to write? In what language did he write? Since Moses was born and raised in Egypt, it seems that he would have spoken Egyptian and “written” Hieroglyphics. But this is unlikely. Only highly ranked officials were ever taught to read and write. It’s doubtful that Moses would have been in that select group. - Writing the entire Torah, in Cuneiform or Hieroglyphs, was impossible.
There are just too many Cuneiform or Hieroglyphic characters required to represent all the words in the Torah. The five books of the Torah contain 79,800 Hebrew words. IF, somehow, Moses did write the Torah in either Cuneiform or Hieroglyphics it would have taken over 5,000,000 characters to represent the books of the Torah. It is impossible for Moses to have listened to God dictate and etched every word in 40 days. How long do you think it would have taken Moses to record these ridiculous Instructions For Constructing the Ark?
It is impossible for Moses to have listened to God dictate and etched every word in 40 days. How long do you think it would have taken Moses to record these ridiculous Instructions For Constructing the Ark?For example, here is a close-up of some Cuneiform characters that mean “Tribute of Jehu, Son of Omri”
Below is a section of the Cuneiform peace treaty between Hattusa and Ramses II, 1269 BCE. Note the thickness of the tablet, presumably to prevent it from breaking during transit.
How were the thousands of tablets kept in order? The Egyptian numbering system was not as concise as ours. By the time the tablets were loaded in Ox carts (where did they come from) and hauled around the desert for, let’s say, 35 years, the chance that they could ever be put back in order is zero.
- There was no way to produce the Torah.
Now then, upon what did Moses record these words? Writing in wet clay with a stylus was one method of writing in that era*. To make the writing permanent, the clay had to be fired. But Moses didn’t have access to clay, only sand. He didn’t have a kiln to fire the clay into solid tablets that could be transported either. Look at the picture of Mt Sinai below. Where are the trees that would be needed to fuel the kiln? If the (non-existent) clay isn’t fired, it falls apart.Conclusion: there was no way for Moses to have produced anything like the Torah.* Writing on papyrus was another method of recording. But, clearly Moses had no papyrus. Making papyrus requires lots of water and Papyrus trees. Moses had neither. - Even if written, there was no way to transport the entire Torah
An educated guess says that each tablet, in order to be manageable, could be no bigger than three feet square and six inches thick (see picture above). The thickness is required to prevent the fired stones from breaking during transit. Let’s allow 300 “words” (remember, it takes a lot more space to express ideas in Cuneiform or Hieroglyphics than it does in English) per tablet. In this case 266 tablets would be required. If each tablet was three square feet , 6 inches thick (see diagram above) the weight of the each tablet would have been 102 pounds. Total weight of the clay tablets that held the entire Torah… 27,000 pounds, 13 TONS .
How then, did Moses transport the tablets down the mountain and then transport them all around the desert for 40 years? Imagine the task of transporting 13 tons of stone down this mountain – - How were these “stone” tablets preserved during the 40 years?
We don’t have the stones containing words written or dictated by God but somehow we have managed to keep intact the entire texts of the Torah? We have apparently been able to preserve God’s word on how to make Aron’s breastplate:
“And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.” Exodus 28:15
The tablets survived long enough to be translated. But where are they now? Tons of writings created by icon Moses and not a one of these holy stones, words from the mouth of God himself, none of them survived? How did they ever maintain, intact, thousands of stone-like tablets of Cuneiform scrawled upon by Moses?
When and by whom and where were they translated?
Surely important “documents” i.e. the “writings” (on stone no less) of Moses would have been preserved. After all, they were on stone!
Why don’t we have ANY of them now? - Moses Writes in Past Tense
Tradition says that Moses wrote all five books of the Torah. But the events described in Numbers, Leviticus and Deuteronomy occurred during the Exodus and Moses writes about them in the past tense. He even uses third person when he creates Exodus. He never says “I went up the mountain”; he always refers to himself in third person, e.g. “Moses went up the mountain”. Maybe this is more evidence that the Torah was not written by Moses. Modern scholars place it writing by a committee sometime in the 700s BCE. - Moses Describes his own death.
But the most convincing proof that Moses did not write the Torah, is the fact that Moses describes his own death.
Biblical passage needed here. - Scholars know Moses did not write the Torah.
Read the Documentary Hypothesis to learn who really wrote the books of the Torah. The Toirah was written around 700 BCE by multiple authors and then pulled together (poorly) by another guy.
Moses is presented as revered; he should be presented as vilified.
Moses is the author of atrocious acts throughout the Old Testament but the worst is found here;
And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp; and Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle; and Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now, therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known a man by lying with him; but all the women-children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Numbers 31:13-18.
“… keep alive for yourselves”! For what? You know what!
Analysis, Confirmation using “Historical Method”
Conclusion
It has been shown beyond a reasonable doubt that Moses is a mythical character, a glue to hold together several stories that collectively make up the Jewish tradition. There is no possible way any of the events attributed to him could have actually happened. The examples listed here are impossible, even with the help of an intervening God.
How can Jews and Christians honor and revere this fictitious monster? How can it get any worse? How is Moses any different than Hitler?
The Church Of Truth™ 
Great Writing
SO SATAN DOES NOT EXIST EITHER .IT IS ALL A FICTIOUS FANTASY STORY . SO THEREFORE YOU DO NOT EXIST IT IS ALL A DREAM . YOU ARE NOT REALLY WRITING ANYTHING . !!!!! ARE YOU A NATURAL IDIOT OR COLLEGE EDICATED !
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
Good try disproving the biblical writers many have tried and have never been successful either. All the german higher criticism has already been shot down by the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. They give us new insights into all the writings of Moses and other prophets. Please keep trying though because the closer you come to God the sooner you’ll be saved.
You are wrong. The Dead Sea scrolls cannot prove anything that Moses is alleged to have done; for example talked with god. Also, you are OK with revering a man who says: “Now, therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known a man by lying with him; but all the women-children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves”? . Numbers 31:13-18.
If that’s the kind of nonsense you support … words fail me.
By the way, how is it that we even have those exact words? Was Moses keeping a diary in which he recorded his every word? Where are your critical thinking skills man?
The dead sea scrolls isn’t proof that Moses even exists. The Bible is a book of claims, it claims a god exists but isn’t evidence of a god and by default the Dead Sea Scrolls are in the same cagegory. They are just more claims written by a desert tribe who believed they were special and had special god who helped them win wars and annihilate and destroy their enemies. All holy books around the world are written with this same perspective. The bible isn’t unique. What you believers need is evidence from outside of your book that a supernatural god magically did all the stuff in your storybook but unfortunately for you there is none.
Archaeology does not confirm the magical stories in the Bible. Indeed, archaeology completely discounts what was happeneing in the Levant and Jordan throughout much of the Bible. There is zero evidence Moses existed. There is no evidence whatsoever that 2 million people wandered around for 40 years in a desert that is 140 miles wide and takes 2 weeks to walk the length of. Indeed, if 2 million people held hands in a chain it would reach 430 miles ( 690 k) almost three times the width of the Sinai desert, so the idea that 2 million people were lost for that long is ludicrous and laughable.
The Moses birth story was plagiarized from Sargon of Akkad who lived hundreds of years previously. In Sargon’s story he was placed in a basket and put in the Euphrades river, found by a palace worker, raised as the prince in the royal house and grew to become a great leader of a nation. This story was borrowed and written into the Bible as Israel’s national foundation story. Almost all ancient kingoms and civilizations have a national foundation story, that is to say, myths and god stories that tell how the nation was founded. Moses, and the stories surrounding him, is a complete myth. He did not exist.
The closer you get to god, the more delusional you become. The Dead Sea Scrolls just add to and extend the myths and fairytales. Grow up. Learn to use logic and reason, please.
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So I’m reading the Bible and just finished Deuteronomy. Maybe I’m not absorbing everything or got confused (I did not take notes of time) but I got confused when they took so long to find cannon which I though Jospeh’s brothers used to travel from their to Egypt on occasion and it was not all that crazy. I feel like time was also mentioned as facades passing before they finally reached the boarder of the Jordan river when god tells Moses all the men of fighting age will have to die and the youth will have to be lost for 40 years, but because Moses dies at 120 and and leaves Egypt at 80 this can not be right? And if all men of fighting age have died how is Moses alive? And why does he in some parts refer to peoples ancestors being the ones in Egypt and other times talk as if people would remember? Or sometimes say remember when god himself spoke to you in the fire or other times when god spoke and I told you? Or that god wrote the tablets and then that he wrote what god wanted?
Where did you get the ages from? Could you please reference every scripture when referring to the Bible. I can’t find anywhere where it mentions that they had kids at 30 years old.
If it’s a math equation using relative dates then please explain that
Moses was 120 when he died. Deuteronomy 34:7.
It is possible to biblically verify everything I say but usually referred to things that were well known so I didn’t feel I had to reference them. I know I am telling the truth so I didn’t feel it necessary.
Kids at age 30 – yes it appeared to me that worked given certain things I read in the bible and elsewhere; maybe even some christian apologetics.
Also, if you really want to make that claim with that much certainty, then you must also say the following 7 people never existed:
1- King Arthur
2- Robin Hood’
3- Homer
4- Lycurgus
5- Sun Tzu
6- Pythagoras
7- Midas
As these 7 characters in history have even less records than the topic at hand.
You can’t have it both ways.
It is entirely rational to believe Moses was a real person, and not a myth….. whether you are a Christian, Jew, agnostic, or atheist.
1- A silver-plated bronze calf was found in the early 90’s (around the Gaza Strip area), which is likely a reference to the golden calf of the Bible/OT.
2- It is important to note- that (and this is coming from a Christian)….. the Exodus story was likely much smaller than most people take it to have been. But, to those people, it was that big of a deal. Studies show the Israelites likely crossed the “Sea of Reeds”- shallow lakes (present-day Suez Canal)- winds could/would have made the lakes possible to cross on foot, but not by Egyptian chariots.
3- The well-know Jewish historian, Josephus, and ancient Jewish rabbis never doubted the existence of Moses.
4- There is no evidence from the 18th dynasty of Egyptian records (of a major disaster, the plagues, the fall of the Egyptian army, etc.
But
If you look at the 12th dynasty, there shows a large number of Semitics slaves devastation in Egypt, along with a departure of slaves, as well.
5- Many scholars (including Christians) are beginning to believe/accept that there are errors in the chronology dates of Egyptian history, and it should be REDUCED by centuries (approximately 250 years).
6- If #5 is true, this would have put Sesostris the 3rd as king- and he was known for treating his slaves very badly/
7- This reduction of 250 years comes from a 1991 book by Peter James, called “Centuries of Darkness.”
8- It is important to know, that if you claim that Moses was not a real person and never existed, due to a lack of records (with is also a simple Argument from Silence fallacy), then you must also concede that the following 7 characters in history also did not exist (due to that though process)-
1- King Arthur
2- Pythagoras
3- Homer
4- Robin Hood
5- Lycurgus
6- Midas
7- Sun Tzu.
Wow. This is real proof. I am blown away.
Yes, that was sarcasm. Here is the traditional chronology:
~1623 BCE – Jacob and his family travel to Egypt.
~1493 BCE – Moses’s birth.
~1413 BCE – Moses leads the Jews out of Egypt, having been there a total of 210 years.
The number 400 (or 430) cannot be referring to the Israelites stay in Egypt, as Kehath’s 137 years, Amram’s 133, and Moses’s 80 leave you at only 350, without accounting for generational overlap.
In general, I find most of the “proofs” and “contradictions” on this site to be displays of childish ignorance. No, not even childish, because even children know better. It’s not elementary, it’s preschool.
“preschool, childish ignorance”? You are calling me out about the date of an event that never happened. So you buy into the fable, you just want to argue about the date of the fiction? You are a condescending, self-righteous prig.
You totally confirm the point of this website; to wit: the bible is so wrong about so much, how can you believe any of it.
“Traditional chronology” be damned. Here is what “theTorah.com” has to say about the matter:
The Torah in Exod 12:40–41 states unequivocally the length of Israel’s stay in Egypt:
12:40 The length of time that the Israelites lived in Egypt was four hundred and thirty years. 12:41 At the end of the four hundred and thirtieth year, to the very day, all the ranks of Yhwh departed from the land of Egypt.
How about the growth rate of the Jews, from 70 to 3 million in 235 years? Wow – that is some fornicating wouldn’t you say.
So, I was only using the inerrant word of god’s, Wholly Holey Holy Babble Bible. An inconsistency? Oh my god, “Scholars” interpreting fiction differently? Say it isn’t so, how can this possibly be?
What other of events that “didn’t happen” do you want to correct me on?
How about the age of the earth and all the implications of the 6K year old earth? How about the date of the flood? How about the length of time the Jews were roaming in the desert with no food or water ( or do you childishly buy into the “manna” bullshit and the split rock that provided water for 40 years for 3 million (give or take a million) people.
How about the date of the first Adam and Eve?
I believe this:
Both men and women can trace their origins to a man and a woman who lived about 135000 years ago. … that all women on the planet trace back to a mitochondrial Eve, who lived in Africa between 99,000 and 148,000 years ago — almost the same time period during which the Y-chromosome Adam lived.
Or do you believe that Eve was created from Adam’s rib (or was it dust and spit?) about 6K years ago? Want to argue about those dates too?
Do you really think all the firstborn of Egypt were slaughtered by some spirit that could only tell if you were Jewish by noting the blood of a newly slain lamb on the doorjamb? Such bullshit.
How about the date oi the tower of babble?
How about the date of Jesus’ birth? 4BC or 6AD?
Seems to me, supercilious sir, that you are the one who needs to get out of preschool with your childish, unreasoned, concrete thinking.
I used the word preschool quite literally. I expect a child out of preschool to be able to tell me you’re setting up a straw man. If you put so much stock into “It’s wrong because the dates don’t work,” at least have the courtesy of getting the dates correct.
As for the “manna and split rock” feeding a population of ~3 million, it’s referred to as a miracle precisely because it doesn’t quite fit the natural world as it is normally observed. You haven’t proved that it didn’t occur, only that it doesn’t normally occur. Which is fine with me.
The growth rate of the Jews, from 70 (males) to 600,000 (adult males) in 210 years – yes, it’s quite something. The Torah does express wonderment about it, so you haven’t touched on anything new.
The slaying of the Egyptian firstborn? There was a religious significance to the ritual, but tradition is quite clear that being in house “protected” by the blood did not save anyone who would otherwise have been slain. But in general, it is accepted that during times of tragedy, the righteous suffer along with the wicked.
Tradition dates the flood to ~2105 BCE, and the Tower of Babel to ~1765 BCE, when Abraham was 48 years old. Regarding the last event you asked about, I couldn’t tell you, nor do I care. The Bible is silent on the matter.
My point is: If you’re trying to point out (apparent) internal inconsistencies in the Bible, have the common sense to realize that most of the points you raise have been the topic of scholars (meaning people who spent time studying, even if you discount the worth of their studies) for hundreds, and even thousands of years. Do the smallest bit of research before you conclude that your simple “look, it doesn’t work” proves anything.
If you restrict yourself to pointing out inconsistencies between the Bible and the theories and reconstructions of modern archaeology, you will at least have a coherent argument. So long as the dating you use for events in the ancient world is not as bad as your dating of biblical events, in which case you prove nothing at all.
Again, I called it “preschool” rather than “elementary” because I know preschool children are taught that much. The slightly more in-depth proof – that the 430 years cannot be referring to years only spent in Egypt, though that is what the literal reading of the verse suggests – is taught at the 3rd to 5th grade level. The original Septuagint (now lost to history) actually clarified the verse to read, “And the residence of the Israelites in Egypt *and in other lands* was 430 years.”
There’s plenty more to say, but I will leave off with a quote from a famous philosopher/sage: “That God in which you don’t believe – I don’t believe in that God, either.” (In other words, you have such a flawed perception of what God is, your disbelief can be discounted.)
I believe that you are the one that reeks of childish ignorance – you really believe there was an exodus. No serious secular, (read not predisposed to believe the bible) scholar (that would include me) believes there was an exodus. Read what real scholars have to say about the exodus.
As the Jewish archaeologists Israel Finkelstein* and Neil Silberman noted:
[W]e have no clue, not even a single word, about the early Israelites in Egypt: neither in monumental inscriptions on the walls of temples, nor in tomb inscriptions, nor in papyri. Israel is absent – as a possible foe of Egypt, as a friend, or as an enslaved nation
Most historians today agree that at best, the stay in Egypt and the Exodus occurred in a few families and that their private story was expanded and “nationalized” to fit the needs of theological ideology.
Israeli archaeologist Ze’ev Herzog, provides the current consensus view on the historicity of the Exodus:
The Israelites never were in Egypt. They never came from abroad. This whole chain is broken. It is not a historical one. It is a later legendary reconstruction – made in the seventh century [BCE] – of a history that never happened.
William Dever, an archaeologist normally associated with the more conservative end of Syro-Palestinian archaeology, has labeled the question of historicity of Exodus “dead.”
To reiterate my previous conclusion: to call me out on the dates of an event that never happened is the height of childlike ignorance. Jesus would love you. He wanted all of his followers to be like simpleton children. You fit the requirement perfectly.
For your education, here is the bio for Israel Finkelstein
Israel Finkelstein (Hebrew: ישראל פינקלשטיין, born March 29, 1949) is an Israeli archaeologist and academic. He is the Jacob M. Alkow Professor of the Archaeology of Israel in the Bronze and Iron Ages at Tel Aviv University. Finkelstein is widely regarded as a leading scholar in the archaeology of the Levant and a foremost applicant of archaeological data in reconstructing biblical history.
So, Menachem Salomon, don’t go god damn lecturing me about how wrong I am about the dates of an event that never happened.
I’ve read Finkelstein. I found him thoroughly unpersuasive, and – to my eyes, at least – riddled with anti-religious bias. If you’re trying to argue “own teammate”, as it was called in grade school, he’s not on my team. I also found him to be similarly ignorant of any traditional Jewish oral histories.
I could understand if he were to be skeptical of oral histories, as he should be skeptical of any writings (or carvings, or portrayals) by any ancient peoples about themselves or their enemies. But instead he chooses to discount them totally, or else he does not know of them to any degree of depth, and yet he relies heavily on a much smaller set of historical artifacts. So I see him as quite untrustworthy.
I’m not lecturing you about the events (or alleged events, as you prefer), but about the way you choose to argue about them. Recognize when an argument is good, when it is empty rhetoric, and when it actually proves the opposing position. You will notice that I did not, in my previous comments, argue the point about archeological evidence, and actually pointed out you might have a strong argument there, or at least one I cannot refute. I stuck to the “internal inconsistencies” you cited, which are much lower hanging fruit – such that even a layman can laugh at them – and am working on the debate premise that if I can prove you don’t know about half of what you’re talking about, your expertise about the other half comes into question.
Before continuing, I do have one question: Are you the author of the blog post (and, I assume, the rest of the site), or are you just another commenter on the post? I ask because I want to be responding only to what you wrote, and it is unfair to ascribe to you statements that others made, even if you share their opinions.
Finally, regarding your assertion that a certain individual “would have loved me”, I cannot tell if you made that comment out of ignorance or out of spite, but I ask you to be aware that I find it offensive. (You are free to continue to offend, but at that point it would be clear to both of us that you are taking that track.)
Could you prove this to me using the Bible?
“Moses was in Egypt for 259 years”
I’ve looked online and can’t find anything
One can’t prove anything using the bible. It is a book of fiction. I did prove it to you using reason. Show me anything I said that wasn’t true.
For one, think about the water requirements. Where did the water for 3 million+ humans and their livestock come from. PLEASE don’t say a rock. The Israelites were all over the place. How did the water source follow them? That’s just one thing the proves the story wrong. There are hundreds.
You have completely brushed off my question, you have barely skimmed over the issue of Moses being in Egypt for 259 years, I am asking for a more detailed answer please, I don’t know, Scholars have thought that it was a much smaller group of people than what the Torah says
I just did prove it using the bible. Joseph and his entourage of 70 arrived in Egypt in 1876 BC (Exact date doesn’t matter. What matters is that the Jews were there for 400 or 440 years ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE. Using the bibles own genealogy I showed that “Moses” was born 1786 BC. Using the words of the BIble, Moses left Egypt when he was 80 (Died at age 120, 40 years in desert = 80 years old. when he left Egypt.).
So, there are 259 years between Moses birth date and the date the Jews fled Egypt. What more proof do you need?
Of course it’s not online. Apparently no one else has picked up on this obvious discrepancy in the Moses fable.
And the stone tablets. Now there’s a laugher. How could one man produce stone tablets containing the entire Torah? Oh, not stone? What then?
Alright, thank you
Wait…I thought God told Noah to build the arc, not Moses? Now I am confused.
The Ark of the Covenant is different than the Ark of Noah.
Nope. Both merely part of stories to amuse the kids.Never existed; never happened.
@charles coryn: I thought you were smart! There are three definitions commonly attached to this word. Most familiar one, which originated in the late 1920, was the one that Karl Young attached to it when he wrote the book with this title. But I don’t have the time and space right now. The original meaning was; and still is… Synchronicity is an experience of two or more events which occur in a meaningful manner, but which are causally un-related.
When Moshe killed the Egyptian was way before the Exodus.. The law had not been handed down yet. So he was not under the law. I am; here, using the often miss translate of the Hebrew word “TORAH” as law. A more closer translation would be precepts to live by. So the killing of the Egyptian and what was handed down later as precepts to live by are really un-related. That’s why in a Democratic form of government; if you believe in such fairies, laws can’t be made retroactive. Only in despotic type of government.
I think you soapbox broke as soon as you started with the rant on how smart you where!!
You just are another Idiot on top of a broken soapbox. Welcome to my village.
Signed by
The Village Idiot
Thanks for the welcome Idiot…… ‘Synchronistic’ sounds like wu-wu. A fuzzy word to me ……. What difference does it make that ‘the law hadn’t been passed down yet’? Moses still killed a man didn’t he? You’re saying that was OK because there wasn’t any law yet? Twice God says anyone who kills a man should be put to death. Well God apparently was happy with a killer to carry out his work of robbing the Canaanites of their land, and killing them. But it’s all fiction, it has nothing to do with reality, just to talk about the book as if it were reality is insane…. I guess my point was simply that the OT shouldn’t make any real sense to anyone, and I can’t understand how anyone can believe it, or accept it as anything truthful or meaningful. But nothing has changed, the Jews are still killing the Palestinians and stealing their land because they think there is a ‘god’ who sanctions it? And the US is sending Israel $3 billion a year to help out. Religions are governments to control people, are they not? My point was that now that we have enough intelligence, can’t we stop killing people all around the world because we believe in different fictions? But it will never happen……
And no, I’ll not accept your characterization of another idiot on top of a broken soapbox…….you’re being unkind to us both…….
Rant, rant, rant. Only your line of logic is logic. You forget who has the might. Oh, the old rand on how bad the Jews are and how good the Muslim are. I am not Jewish, nor Christian and certainly not Muslim. Heaven forbid! You’ll need to do better than that. I think you should visit this site…
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
Your soapbox is still broken!!
Singned by The Village Idiot.
No, you seem to have missed my point, but no matter…… Mind is the only thing that really interests me…. my mind, your mind, his mind…….. My mind sees that your post was dated today at 6:34am……… hmmmm…… no, I’ve done my time, I’ll be dust shortly, so I’ll just enjoy this sunrise now…… I like to think about how small and insignificant I am…… maybe you too…… how maybe this matters, or maybe not…… the sun is up and I’m filling with energy….. actually I’m a fan of J. Khrisnamurti……. “When you call yourself a christian or a muslim or a jew or a european or anything else, you are being violent. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence.”….. and of Voltaire…..”Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities, has the power to make you commit injustices……..
Peace…..
https://youtu.be/ydPZRoLzu-E (this may or may not be Pat Condell)
@charles coryn: “Alas, the old Snake Salesman. I knew him well” My Shakespeare version of Hamlet (eg. in your ref. to Voltaire).
Like said I am not a religious person. But I will not raise an altar to science or philosophical sub-science either. Also if there is a creator (which the odds are greater in favor of) I won’t sit as judge and jury. I rather spit against the wind. It is impossible to prove a negative. For me science is just a tool which I use daily. Here is quote; which I keep by my desk, and really defines the term science…
“Science, after all, is not about certainty, but uncertainty. It is a method of inquiry, not an engineering solution.” by Greg Satell
People need to learn how to argue. As soon as I hear a person say that “because the majority of people believe say so” that makes it a factual statement. Let’s say I usually laugh my ass off.
All religions have something in common . Some single individual claims to have gotten a message and there was never another group of persons or a single individual to witness the event. Another thing in common is “doctrines”. These doctrine do not reflect anything within the scriptures themselves. One of their main tenet is always that you could never understand or comprehend it. That you just have to believe!! CRAP. Watch your wallet.
I think I need to define on how I use the terms “The Scriptures” and “Bible”. The bible is what the christian inherited from the psychopath know as “Constantine the great” And the scriptures are what is left after you take Paul out of the equation but still corrupted. A pedantic guy like me this makes my mouth water. The scriptures are absolutely different that any other religious know scrolls. In there you see the good the bad and the ugly of what man can do to it’s fellow men. Including the Jewish people failing at every turn of the pages. The Hebrew people that came out of Egypt were artisans and well read people of the time. Technically they were not Jewish yet. They were witness to the presences of the Angel that spoke in place of the creator. That has been calculated to be excess of two million people. At any time Moshe could have been contradicted. Not a single account has been found. This is not proof by any given logic. But it certainly makes be ponder. I do that a lot!. Anyway this story line holds trough many eons and different story tellers know as prophets. Never seen that done ever and the odds are against it happening again are more than astronomical. I like math. When I was a child I also liked turtles. Smile, I am. There is something different about the scriptures. But not the Bible.
Watch your video. Agree with a lot of it. Here is my version, sorry it includes some math, the hard facts in numbers…
Hope you enjoy.
Signed by The Village Idiot
I enjoyed that very much, and I do appreciate your communication V.I. And permit me to suggest one more video, about exponential growth by Dr. Al Bartlett….. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O133ppiVnWY I hope that is correct, if not his name and ‘exponential growth’ will trigger a bunch of sites. He brings exponential growth into sharp perspective……..
I’ve searched for but never experienced anything supernatural, and have never experienced the miraculous. I was brought up in the Methodist Church, and baptized twice, Catholic and Methodist, and never missed a sunday for 12 years. I wanted to believe and tried to communicate with God and Jesus but received no response, absolutely nothing to support some belief. Around 20 I met a Jewish boy who was a complete unbeliever, who was the first person I’d met who took religion to task, quite an experience for me at 20. So I turned my back on religion and started after knowledge of reality, specifically anthropology and archaeology. I had the chance to study both physical anthropology as well as cultural anthropology. I graduated in 1965 from Berkeley, but as fate would have it, I never worked in the field. I did let my mind go…. into the Tao and Buddhism, and some Indian holy men. I read Krishnamurti and others and was amazed at the difference between the eastern groups, the Shinto and the Jains for example, and the western trio of Judaism, Islam and Christianity, Then I spent a long time researching Christianity until I realized the lack of concrete evidence for any of it, such that scholars were seriously divided. Some basic questions haunted me, such as ‘Why would an all powerful god create a world where every living creature had to eat another living creature to survive? I knew of parthnogenic {?} flowers, of single sex reproduction, why not people? But it was reading the Bible in depth that convinced me Christianity was a man made phenomena. My mind couldn’t stop thinking. How was it possible for a child, half-man, half-god, to reach the age of 28 or so and not be recognized as divine, or holy? Surely such news could not remain hidden. The Jesus story couldn’t be true. What of the other stories? I was learning of the slow human evolution over truly immense time spans, practically all under primitive hunting and gathering tribal structures.
I’m rambling I see…….so I’ll conclude. Religion became untenable for me, and I became obsessed with the truth, with facts and reality, and I’ve never turned back. Now, at 80, I’ve seen the whole show but still can’t make any sense out of it. And my time has run out, how frustrating……
V.I…… Yes, I’ve watched the video again and read your post, and I thank you. I didn’t see an accredidation regarding the film, do you know who made it? I’m living in a dream of peace and civility that I hope will continue to exist, but likely won’t. We’re animals, we want to survive at all costs, and we’ll do anything to assure survival. That must be the answer…… take away my pension and my social security and I’ll become an animal again, living in fear, reduced to a ‘life force’, a will to continue to live, perhaps even if it means depriving another of his life. I’m trying to grasp the reality of our ascent to knowledge following thousands of years of evolution….. thousands of years of fear and suffering….. it’s so hard to get my mind around it. I’ve been vaguely aware of the population dynamics of Europe, having lived and worked there, and I remember a mosque being built in West Palm Beach about 20 years ago. As I witness the population explosion I sense life becomes more fragile. The views of all the cars on the highways sends waves of fear through me….. and I feel I’m edging closer and closer to non-existence, until I’ll transcend even that, and my mind floats free, and ……. what? Disappears? Yes, that’s what I’m assuming. Everything simply disappears……
Peace……
@charles coryn: I am not a preacher or a priest. I am not an apologist. I can not even give you faith but I can tell you what is in my heart.
I would like to tell you a story of why I choose the name “The Village Idiot”. I think you are pretty familiar with the term. Bu I’ll reiterate here for those that do not. This monicker was given to indigent people that lived on the streets. Sometimes by no fault of their own. Some where mentally handicap. Some were cretins and others where alcohol/drug abusers. You would never see them in the cities or bigger towns. They would always round them up and put them in mental institutions. Out of sight out of mind! So this souls where restricted to villages.
We were bless with two of such individuals from the small town from which I came from. One was a white decorated veteran. If you talked to him you could tell he was not all-up-there, He would ask you for money. Sometime he would use it to buy alcohol and sometime time he would by some french bread and ham/cheese. If there was a town parade he would put on his army uniform full of medals and would leaded the parade and everyone would cheer him on. Of course the were always young teenagers teasing him, something the whole town would frown on. The next day you could see him in the park drunk and cover with newspaper on a bench sleeping it off. He was a happy fellow. Everyone new him by his nickname and everyone would looked after him. When he died the whole town went to his burial and mourn the lost. I learned that he was really a highly decorate veteran and had earn many medals. A bomb had kill his whole platoon. He got spare by a miracle to leave the live which I just describe to you.
The second gentleman was a large black individual (a big Teddy Bear) and because of that younger children were scare of him. He would asked you to stand sideways and he would carve with his scissors from brown paper bags your silhouette. And you would give him a quarter or two. Sometime they where people waiting in line. He would not wear shoes since his feet were too large. He have had many infections in those feet walking bare. One day the whole town got together and collected enough money to buy him the special shoes that he needed. They figure out that it would be a lot cheaper than paying his medical bills. So the whole town got together and present him with the brand new shoes. He always slept around the theater. That weekend he was found behind the back of the theater cover over with cardboard clutching the brand new pair of shoes. You see he didn’t want them scratch! The town thought that someone had kill him for the shoes and that’s why he was holding onto them. In the autopsy it was found out that he had an enlarge heart and that was what had kill him. Needless to say the whole town mourn his death and attended his funeral. He had a big heart in so many ways!!
These so called; by big city dwellers, insignificant people gave flavor and made each village unique depending on the character of the individual. During world war two these human beings disappeared. The Nazis SS would kill them with a 22 caliber Ruger on the side of the head and on the spot. They were not even good for the gas chamber. If anyone would try to stop them they would have met the same fate. A good majority would say “About time they clean up the streets.” When you go to the Holocaust Memorial you’s see the mention of Jews, JW’s, homosexuals and mental patience. Most people think that these last group of people included the village idiots. These fact tells more about the people that surrounded them that the idiots themselves. Tear come to my eyes, not for the village idiots, but thinking how many times we have failed the test as human beings. Such humble souls deserve so much better.
Thanks for listening to my rand. I am 10 years younger that you and I will not see 80. I have been diagnose with multiple myeloma. My life expectancy is between 5 to 10 years. Two years down already!
But I am thankful to the creator for a very interesting life. Full of struggles and starry nights. I have come to know his love. May He bless you also. Don’t worry; for this one, you don’t have to believe anything if you don’t want to.
Signed by The Village Idiot
VI….. I feel very fortunate that I have lived this long, as I had no idea that these last few years would be so interesting. The body may age but the mind seems forever young…….. The latest research and understanding of the earliest settled humans has become my object of fascination lately. Mostly because this gives me an opportunity to think using everything I have ever learned, and expand my mind even more. Check this out if you enjoy such stuff:
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=stories+from+the+stone+age+1of15&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
Personally I’ve not felt any reason or need to entertain thoughts of deities, although I would if I perceived any credible evidence. I did see this comment this morning by A. Einstein, “There is, after all, something eternal that lies beyond the hand of fate and of all human delusions.” A. Einstein, “Letter to Queen Elisabeth of Belgium”.
Have you ever thought that perhaps the universe has always existed, that it never was created? Seems no harder to believe than that everything was created out of ‘nothing’. We seem locked into some concepts of being that may not be universal, or always. And we may never know. At one point in my life I considered that perhaps we didn’t even have ‘free will’, that determinism was a fact. And I still wonder some times…… Years ago I read an analysis of belief by George H. Smith, titled “Atheism – The Case Against God” which seemed to consider every possible contingency based upon the fact that reality is contiguous, and there are no ‘gaps’ where the supernatural could lurk. My biggest objection to religion is that it raises more questions than it answers. I simply can’t find answers in religion. And I do consider it criminal to threathen and scare young children with devil and hell stories. Taking money under false pretense is another objection I have against religion, but enough, I rest my case…….
Peace
Supreme Truth Sayer: Going to argue only one point. You guys better read the scriptures, and stop wahtching movies, The tablets were small… enough to fit in the palm of the hands. Nothing like the “The Ten Commanments” (1956) with Charlton Heston. You guys sound like real idiots, you know!
Signed by: The Village Idiot
Right, read the scriptures……. are you serious? I read about Moses killing an Egyptian at Ex 2-12, and then a couple of chapters later, at Ex 21:12 God says “Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death.” And God repeats this later at Lev 24:17…… But instead of being put to death, Moses is put in charge of a genocide, and together with Joshua they attempt to annihilate the population of Canaanites who had been living there for 2000 years. They are specifically told to kill everyone except the unmarried daughters who were given to the soldiers.
And you’re telling me this is a ‘holy’ book? Like I say, we are brainwashed from birth by parents, teachers and preachers, and it works! About 85 to 90% of people believe these ‘holy’ books, and without any teaching of reasoning ability, it is accepted as truth, and fact….. What madness……
How do you know that the tablets were small? In what language were they written? on what media were they written – clay, mud, paper, sand, iPhone ( they had them back then – they were lost in the flood – true, not kidding).
[…] neo says: April 10, 2015 at 3:02 PM […]
[…] If you’ve read around my blog, you know that I am troubled by the Pentateuch in general. In particular, I am becoming skeptical about Moses. There have been much evidence from historical documents and archaeology that shows that the Moses story in the Bible either didn’t happen or it was on a much smaller scale. Another thing comes from the Bible itself….adding up the genealogies gives us a 259 year gap between Moses and the actual Exodus. Link is Anti- Bible but it gives evidence that Moses may not have been real […]
Rameses was not likely the Pharoah of Exodus.
There was a city referred to as Rameses spoken of in the story of Joseph.
People assumed Rameses was the Pharoah this was a jump to connect a name to a name in the Bible, but the Pharoah of the Exodus is not mentioned by name.
Pharoah named Rameses was possibly named after a beautiful place, like naming a child Paris or Austin.
Taking a simple approach through records of Biblical genealogies
Genealogy to Moses – Exodus 1,365 BC when calculating years to Moses
1,365 for the Exodus which is in line with archeology finds shown in the documentary film “Patterns of Evidence”
Taking each age recorded for each patriarch’s age fathering sons of Joseph, then adding 400 years noted in Bible that Israel was in Egypt, which is approx date of Exodus.
Joseph at about 37 when sons were born. They were born as Bible states 1 year before famine, Jacob and sons came to Egypt within a short time after the famine, sons were born. Joseph was 30 when preparing for the famine. Preparation was 7 years, of building up storage. So they were born in or by the 6th year of preperation.
Scripture then says Israel was in Egypt for 400 years prior to the Exodus.
Equalling 2,635 years from Adam at 0 years old. Years in Eden may or may not be included in Adam’s age. I am beginning calculations where the Bible begins years calculations.
I started at 4000 years.
Adam had Seth at 130 years old
So from Adam at 0, then to 1st son counted in genealogies, which is Seth born to Adam at 130 years old. Each age is noted to Isaac born to Abraham at 100 years. Jacob and Joseph are estimates based on context of births.
Bringing Joseph had sons 2235 from Adam at 0 years. And famine bringing Jacob and brothers to Egypt was at the same time frame.
When each age of patriarchs to father sons in the patriarch genealogy we are at 2235 years from Adam at 0. We then add 400 years, since Bible clearly states that Israel was in Egypt. Final estimate of Exodus is 2635 from Adam at age 0.
With this simple approach, the Exodus occurred approximately 1365 BC.
http://patternsofevidence.com/
How do you know Levi was 30 when he fathers Kohath, Kohath was 30 when he fathers Amram, and Amram was 30 when he fathers Moses? I can’t find that info anywhere.
Thanks Troy
john hartung wrote an essay love thy neighbor and basically agrees. farrell till also wrote a similar essay. jews condemn the holocaust and hitler and the nazis but revere the OT which describes similar acts
Hi neo
You are probably right, and if we are to believe the Bible, then the laurels goes to the two most murderous duo that men of letters have ever written about. Forget your Hitler and Goebbels, Bonnie and Clyde, Frank and Jesse James, Fred and Rosemary West, etc., you will find that God and Moses are the all time No 1 killers. No one else comes close when it comes to the full package of atrocities, except for the Catholic Church’s bloody reign from 380-1521, and Hitler’s war and Holocaust 1939-45, etc. God and Moses committed heinous crimes from genocide, murder, rape, pediaphilia, child molestation, arsen, theft, looting and plundering to name but a few. The book of Number has this to say on God and Moses’ murderous rampage: 7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho. 13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle. 15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.[Numbers 31:7-18 NIV]
However, today after more than 3,250 years since Moses’ supposed departure from this world, we find that God has has gone solo on his murder spree.
Cofion (Regards)
Jero Jones
I believe that the author – of what is called Torah – used to have some (or a lot of) LSD and Heroin. Who would believe the story of Jericho or any story in this pile of trash
True, and so sad…… To me, the OT reads like a Manual for Genocide and Ecocide. And it was, it was the story that gave ‘evidence’ to the people that their ‘God’ wanted them to annihilate any other peoples who stood in their way, that only they were God’s ‘chosen people’, etc., etc.
It’s too late for religious fictions… we’ve gotten too smart, and if only we weren’t brainwashed from birth telling us what sinners we are, maybe we could see the world as it really is……
@charles coryn for a person so smart you forgot about synchronicity!!
Signed The Village Idiot
Well, then remind me……. What could you possibly mean?
@charles coryn: for a person so smart you forgot about synchronicity!!
Signed The Village Idiot